Star Trek Picard is not Star Trek

Lord Garth · Mar 1, 2020

Anyone who says Star Trek didn't have gore has never seen TWOK or TUC.

Or Klingon rituals with a dagger in TNG or DS9.

How about the terrible way Shinzon went out at the end of the Nemesis? Slowly pulling the rod that pierced him through his body as he died.

And don't pull any "that was different!" bullshit.

cooleddie74 · Mar 1, 2020

And even if we didn't see visible gore, how about that excruciating shrieking in pain during the transporter malfunction in TMP? Two Starfleet officers were turned inside out and rematerialized in horrifying piles of flesh that didn't live long afterwards.

And that was a G-rated movie in 1979.

Nerys Myk · Mar 1, 2020

Dix said:
The idea that words like fuck and shit will be part of the vernacular in, like, 300 hundred years from now is absolutely silly.

It’s cute that you think swear words are ephemeral or recent additions to the language. In all reality English will be barely recognizable in three hundred years, but the recognizable part will probably include “shit” and “fuck”.

Kerock said:
So I did hear the F word the other night....wife argues they would never say than on Star Trek. It's kind of sad actually.

It’s okay. I’m sure you still love her.

Krandor · Mar 1, 2020

cooleddie74 said:
And even if we didn't see visible gore, how about that excruciating shrieking in pain during the transporter malfunction in TMP? Two Starfleet officers were turned inside out and rematerialized in horrifying piles of flesh that didn't live long afterwards.

And that was a G-rated movie in 1979.

First time I saw it the worm scene in Wrath of Khan freaked me out.

AlanC9 · Mar 1, 2020

@ serabine. Sure. But let's assume that everyone in the future talks like they're in fucking Repo Man or some such. Their idiomatic language is going to have some sort or equivalent impolite intensifier. Since we can't know now what that will be and wouldn't understand it if we heard it, a current show needs to translate that language into 21st-century equivalents.

serabine · Mar 1, 2020

Lord Garth said:
Anyone who says Star Trek didn't have gore has never seen TWOK or TUC.

Or Klingon rituals with a dagger in TNG or DS9.

How about the terrible way Shinzon went out at the end of the Nemesis? Slowly pulling the rod that pierced him through his body as he died.

And don't pull any "that was different!" bullshit.

You know what I just remembered? (And scuttled to Netflix to check). Unimatrix Zero part 1. Where the Borg Queen is trying to find the frequency behind the new mutation, which she's trying to do by hacking off the heads of the mutated drones and putting them on spikes, and we get at one point a shot of someone rooting around in the exposed brain of a spiked drone's head.

ETA: And speaking of the Borg Queen, doesn't she "die" writhing and screaming while her flesh dissolves in First Contact?

Nerys Myk · Mar 1, 2020

serabine said:
ETA: And speaking of the Borg Queen, doesn't she "die" writhing and screaming while her flesh dissolves in First Contact?

No, that was the witch in The Wizard of Oz.

Armus · Mar 1, 2020

KJY said:
I suspect there are also some people who don't care if a story is properly set up, adheres to any sort of internal logic, has consistent characterization, etc. If the writers want us to accept something that happens on screen, however contrived, that's good enough for them.

That's a fair criteria to ask of any television show or film. Viewers have a right to demand good set up, story logic, and consistent characterization. That's where the discussion should be, not whether this is true Star Trek or not, because none of us can agree exactly what that is.

Longinus · Mar 1, 2020

Nerys Myk said:
It’s cute that you think swear words are ephemeral or recent additions to the language. In all reality English will be barely recognizable in three hundred years, but the recognizable part will probably include “shit” and “fuck”.

This just popped up in my YT recommendations. Seemed relevant.

Longinus · Mar 1, 2020

KJY said:
I see people defending this show by pretending it's par for the course by making all sorts of faulty comparisons to the previous series and misrepresenting the nature of the backlash they received. I suspect there are also some people who don't care if a story is properly set up, adheres to any sort of internal logic, has consistent characterization, etc. If the writers want us to accept something that happens on screen, however contrived, that's good enough for them.

Yes, there are such people, they're the fans of Kelvin films and Discovery. This has nothing to do with Picard though, at least not thus far. The story seems to be pretty skilfully crafted. I hope it continues that way.

Lord Garth · Mar 1, 2020

Longinus said:
This just popped up in my YT recommendations. Seemed relevant.

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I've watched his YouTube videos before. Including when I wanted to learn more about Old English, Middle English, and Early-Modern English. A valuable resource.

Greg Cox · Mar 1, 2020

ThreeEdgedSword said:
Yeah, I love these posters who cannot back up their own opinion (except for "XY/ youtube/ millions of fans think the same! See!"), so they need to discredit those of others. This behaviour i all over the internet. In rea life, you wouldn't get away with it. This one is almost semi-original because it's basically about "cognitive dissonance".

Maybe we should collect all these "arguments" in the first post of these threads. Let's see, off the top of my head... (Of course, everyone who dislikes the show is above any such influences and motivations.)

1. stupid/ ignorant
2. paid by CBS
3. cognitive dissonance (they pay for it, so it must be good!)
4. They don't know what Trek is/ Gene's Vision etc.

What else?

5. Not "real" Star Trek fans.

fireproof78 · Mar 1, 2020

KJY said:
I suspect there are also some people who don't care if a story is properly set up, adheres to any sort of internal logic, has consistent characterization, etc. If the writers want us to accept something that happens on screen, however contrived, that's good enough for them.

I would love to know who these people are since I am often accused of being one. :vulcan:

Greg Cox said:
5. Not "real" Star Trek fans.

Oh, that's definitely me :rofl:

SJGardner · Mar 1, 2020

On language, just a few well-known examples of Roman graffiti:

Apollinaris, medicus Titi Imperatoris hic cacavit bene "Apollinaris, doctor of Titus took a good shit here." - in a latrine in Herculaneum

Some gems from Pompeii include:
Suspirium Puellarum Celadus Thraex "Celadus the Thracian (a type of gladiator) makes the girls moan." - found on the walls of a gladiator barracks. Talk about an inflated sense of ego.
"He who buggers a fire burns his penis." - in the basilica (public gathering place).
A street wall had "Theophilus, don't eat out girls against the city wall like a dog."
"I fucked the barmaid." - on the wall of a bar
The famous brothel Lupanare had numerous people bragging about their escapades with all kinds of partners all over its walls or even complimenting prostitutes and recommending their services to other patrons, not to mention insulting the sexual prowess of their rivals.

Yeah, the English word fuck may have been in use for at least 6-700 years (if that 1310s court filing against a certain Roger Fuckbythenavele is authentic), but profanity has been among us since the beginning of spoken language. It's preposterous to think that it will be going away in a mere 300 years and its usage somehow makes a culture primitive and uncivilized.

Lord Garth · Mar 1, 2020

Jinn said:
The Mycelial Network, the Mirror Universe, who the Red Angel was, what the Red Signal thingies were, a colony of humans abducted in the 21st century, a planet-size (?) sentient being that gave them all its knowledge, the secret of the relation between Saru's people and the Ba'ul and a very big tardigrade.

Not to mention, soon, the 32nd Century and what became of the Federation.

Greg Cox · Mar 1, 2020

Dix said:
The idea that words like fuck and shit will be part of the vernacular in, like, 300 hundred years from now is absolutely silly.

Gotta disagree. Beyond the fact, already noted, that "fuck" and "shit" are hardly short-lived slang terms, there's also the fact that STAR TREK has always featured the characters speaking contemporary English instead of some imaginary future dialect, so why single out "fuck" and "shit" as being more unbelievable or anachronistic than any number of other contemporary phrases or idioms or whatever?

I mean, sure, realistically, people talking 300 years from now are not going to sound like people talking today, but we routinely accept that in the interests of comprehension. So why can't we do the same for profanity? What makes "fuck" sillier than terms like "shore leave" or "red tape" or "paycheck" or "teddy bear" or "Damnit, Jim, I'm a doctor, not an escalator" . . . ?

Unless, of course, you think that cussing is a Bad Thing, like war or poverty or racism, that the human race is supposed to have "evolved" beyond, which, honestly, strikes me as silly.

Bad Thoughts · Mar 1, 2020

SJGardner said:
Apollinaris, medicus Titi Imperatoris hic cacavit bene "Apollinaris, doctor of Titus took a good shit here." - in a latrine in Herculaneum

To quote Jean-Luc Picard, "Merde!"

Greg Cox · Mar 1, 2020

Here's the thing: nobody ever said that "utopia" is supposed to be some of highbrow, well-mannered, oh-so-civilized milieu in which people only sip tea, listen to classical music, read Dickens and Moliere, and never ever (gasp!) be so gauche as to to use blunt language. Pretty sure that, even in the enlightened world of the 24th century, people are still going to swear when they stub their toes and spill their coffee or just want to make a point.

I saw a great meme recently, which I wish I could credit to its source, that good writing is not about using the most elegant or tasteful word, but about using the right word for the right occasion.

And sometimes the right word is "fuck."

cooleddie74 · Mar 1, 2020

Data had to learn the word "shit" from somewhere.

fireproof78 · Mar 1, 2020

Greg Cox said:
Here's the thing: nobody ever said that "utopia" is supposed to be some of highbrow, well-mannered, oh-so-civilized milieu in which people only sip tea, listen to classical music, read Dickens and Moliere, and never ever (gasp!) be so gauche as to to use blunt language.

I think that is what we are seeing in the reaction to Picard and DSC is that the Star Trek future is not as polite as it has been imagined.

Which is funny to me when I used to get annoyed at Picard saying "Damn it" on my friend's TNG screen saver. Ah, how times have changed.

cooleddie74 said:
Data had to learn the word "shit" from somewhere.

He learned it after studying other great 20th century comedians and discovered George Carlin.

Star Trek Picard is not Star Trek

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