Spoilers Rosa grade and discussion thread

Discussion in 'Doctor Who' started by The Nth Doctor, Oct 20, 2018.

?

How do you rate Rosa?

  1. Oh, brilliant!

    34.3%
  2. 9

    20.2%
  3. 8

    24.2%
  4. 7

    9.1%
  5. 6

    4.0%
  6. 5

    4.0%
  7. 4

    1.0%
  8. 3

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  9. 2

    2.0%
  10. Rubbish

    1.0%
  1. Lonemagpie

    Lonemagpie Writer Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Location:
    Yorkshire
    Yes, he's doing the whole season.

    Not like Tre to that extent - I mean the way the social comment was handled within it, and the fact that it was a lot more a team show than just the Doctor fixing things.

    Nah, they could easily have gone with team TARDIS's own arrival and accidental butterfly-stomping risking changing things, which would have been as good an intro to them about how to watch their behaviour in trips to the past.
     
  2. BritishSeaPower

    BritishSeaPower Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2005
    Location:
    New Jersey
    I thought that was a very good demonstration of the arbitrary and ridiculous nature of bigotry and segregation. A great example of the banality of evil. It's a system so stupid it doesn't "account" for anything other than white/black spectrum. (In reality it's a little more complicated than that, but for the context of the episode it's very good.)

    I noted that too. I believe the simplest explanation is that if you were suddenly dropped into the segregated south, you'd be a-okay with your woke step-grandpa calling you grandson because it flies in the face of the ideals the folks around you are holding. Also, it's a comforting thing right? Someone ultimately had my back here, when even the Doctor feels a little hamstrung.

    As for the usage of that particular slur and American audiences... I'm definitely aware of it from watching British media, but it's not something I'm sure most Americans would recognize as a slur versus an... inappropriate shortening of nationality. That said, I have heard it used here, as I live in a town with a high South Asian immigrant population - we even have a major shopping district.
     
  3. Starkers

    Starkers Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2001
    Location:
    Behind Enemy Lines
    Not worth engaging with him Evil Headhunter.

    Blakes 7 reference, the limiter is Cresko's head, just like Gan's!
     
    Qonundrum and The Nth Doctor like this.
  4. The Nth Doctor

    The Nth Doctor Infinite Possibilities... Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2000
    Location:
    Lost in a temporal and spatial anomaly
    Yeah, yeah, I know. Sometimes I can't help responding to such silliness.

    Oh, wow, well spotted! Clearly I need to watch Blake's 7 again because I completely missed that.
     
    Starkers likes this.
  5. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2001
    It's weird to me that people are saying the one-note racist killer didn't have enough motivation, given that the primary villains in this franchise for the past 55 years have been one-note racist killers.


    I don't think she really is Banksy, she was just... what do the British say... winding Graham up?


    She's unexpectedly aggressive at times. Compared to a lot of the Doctor's previous selves, she's a lot more in-your-face and contemptuous toward the baddies, like when she yelled "Stop right there!" when she first saw Tzim-sha, as if she were the police.


    Ah, but remember -- Krasko had an implant that prevented him from taking any direct action that would hurt or kill another person. But he did try to zap the Doctor with the displacement device. So if he was capable of using that gun on a person, that probably means the device was intrinsically nonlethal. It probably has some sort of safety feature that ensures people end up in survivable locations. That'd have to be pretty much built into any time-travel device, given that planets move through space so you'd have to track them as they moved.

    Also, it's just a matter of story logic. If a story gets rid of a villain in a way that doesn't explicitly kill them, it's safe to assume they're still alive and able to come back for a sequel.


    I have a hard time believing that she would've been allowed to sit up front. Yaz's skin is darker than a lot of African-Americans' skin (including the actress playing Rosa Parks). So the people in Montgomery would've seen her as "colored." They did kick her out of the restaurant, so it seems odd that she didn't have trouble on the bus.


    But that's kind of the point, isn't it? She doesn't have the right to forbid Ryan from making his own choices. She could warn him of the dangers, and she did, but ultimately the decision was his.
     
  6. Starkers

    Starkers Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2001
    Location:
    Behind Enemy Lines
    Fair points @Christopher especially on the time gun front.

    And I agree re Banksy, she was winding Graham up...

    ...or was she?
     
    Amaris, Gavin70, SolarisOne and 4 others like this.
  7. Mr Awe

    Mr Awe Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2002
    I'm giving it a 6 or 7. This episode was powerful in spots. Obviously, Rosa Parks is a compelling figure with a strong story. However, the story of the episode itself was underwhelming. The villain was a wet noodle. He was a sort of a retooled kinder, unable to kill Master. He came off as pretty lame. Yeah, they explained that the implant caused that. But, he just comes off as weak and unthreatening. The end was certainly powerful--but that was just reporting actual history.

    So, it's a combination of powerful moments but a weak story and weak villain. Only a middling overall score.
     
  8. Mr Awe

    Mr Awe Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2002
    I didn't get that vibe, but that could be because I don't remember the score.

    However, I did get a TNG vibe, which is NOT a good thing musically. I forgot to note this in my review, but that was very distracting. Rosa's theme really reminded me of TNG music.
     
  9. Mr Awe

    Mr Awe Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2002
    I agree with your reasoning. It was a powder keg ready to go over. There had been previous such incidents, including one with Rosa herself! So, even if she didn't do it on the date that history records, she may well have done that soon. If not, someone else. It was going to blow.

    And, that's not to detract anything from her. While protests were inevitable, it still takes courage to be the one to do that, particularly when she was doing that by herself without a group to back her up.
     
    The Nth Doctor likes this.
  10. stj

    stj Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2006
    Location:
    the real world
    Dr. Who goes to Rosa Parks this year while in all its years it didn't go to Peterloo, Tonypandy, the burning of Dr. Price's laboratory, Judge Jeffreys' courtroom, the Irish famine, the Bengal famine....Obviously all of you are right, there couldn't possibly be any relevance to current politics!
     
  11. Professor Zoom

    Professor Zoom Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2004
    Location:
    Idealistic
    Perhaps. They were probably also the types who sympathized with the bus company.
     
  12. M.A.C.O.

    M.A.C.O. Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2011
    Put me in the camp of this story didn't need a villain. The culture shock of 50s America, the legality of discrimination against citizens, and the underdog story were more than enough to sell this episode. Full historical, mate! Instead, we have another lame villain of the week. Next to the tooth monster from earlier. These guys needs to get lost somewhere.

    I would've dedicated more time to the risk and struggle of Rosa's actions and decisions. We know that Rosa lost her job because she wouldn't give up her seat. Rosa's husband was also fired from his job, because he was married to her. Mrs. Parks action would eventually lead to the Montgomery Bus Boycott. Which would hurt businesses and industries that counted on black labor and money they pay into keeping the city running.
     
  13. The Doctor

    The Doctor Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2004
    Location:
    The Doctor's TARDIS
    Sure it's relevant, but the only way you could say that it's a jab at Trump is if you think that he would disapprove of Rosa Parks...

    And that's where I'll leave it, since this isn't TNZ.
     
    Amaris, DS9Continuing, Pindar and 3 others like this.
  14. david kelly

    david kelly Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2016
    It's funny to me that I live in Montgomery and the location doesn't resemble Montgomery of that time period. But I suppose I'll cut them some slack.
     
  15. StCoop

    StCoop Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2006
    Location:
    Dublin, Ireland
    For being shot in South Africa it did a good job passing for America. (Some of the accents aside.)

    At least it's not 'Legends of Tomorrow' where they tried to pass of the same bit of damp Canadian woodland they use for everything as Africa...
     
    SolarisOne, Pindar and The Wormhole like this.
  16. Tuskin38

    Tuskin38 Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2011
    Coincidentally, the Deep Space Nine documentary team also revealed a new ship yesterday (or was it Saturday?) that is named after him.
     
    BritishSeaPower and lurok like this.
  17. Marc

    Marc Fleet Admiral Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2003
    Location:
    Shinning Waters
    has be covered in a 5th Doctor Big Finish "The Peterloo Masacre"
     
  18. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2001
    Location:
    The Wormhole
    Well, the motivations behind the villain were a bit thin. Basically he's just a white supremacist from the future with time travel technology. They still didn't address the fact that preventing Rosa Parks her moment in history wouldn't someone else in a similar situation eventually happen anyway, but given bad guy's talk about the butterfly effect, I guess we're supposed to intuit that between the aborted Parks Incident and the next black person to make a stand for equality, gears would be set in motion on something that would ultimately result in something he approves of.

    An otherwise decent episode which presents the story of Rosa Parks in a respectful way. It works best if you look at the episode as an educational aide shedding light on an important historical event, and once again the episode's strongest with the development and interactions of the Doctor and her new TARDIS team. That said the whole sequence of trying to align everything so that history unfolds as it should wore on a bit.
     
  19. Kibbin

    Kibbin Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2009
    Location:
    Nehwon
    Okay silly question but I'm seeing a lot of people here saying to get rid of the villain entirely. Without him for the Doctor and co to face would it not end up with her being responsible for what Rosa did on that day and thus the "real" hero behind it all? To me that sounds worse. Yes you have to face the evil bus company and the general racism of the era but Rosa did that. That was the point of her protest.
     
  20. matthunter

    matthunter Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2004
    Location:
    Great Britain
    LoneMagpie's idea of the TARDIS team unintentionally kicking off the events and having to right them is OK, but it all ends up resting on the idea that Rosa would always do this AND the crew must be forced to bear witness, effectively becoming accessories to the injustice visited on Rosa. Without Krasko's continued interference, it's hard to come up with a scenario in which the bus is conveniently short of two white (and one "Mexican") passenger to require them seeing through that hardship. Must've been like agony for the Doctor, resisting the temptation to stand up and shame the bus passengers for their pettiness.

    I wrote a fanfic once where the Doctor had to let a woman die in hospital because she couldn't afford treatment, because THAT was the tipping point for her society to realise the injustice of non-socialised healthcare. He and the companion were at least able to stay with her (and he pops up a few times in the future to keep a promise to make sure her kids grow up OK). But he admits it doesn't make it any easier. Since she's not in a position to reveal he's a time traveler, though, he's able to let her see family photos from her kids and their children he's collected, before she slips away.
     
    Kibbin likes this.