So, Locutus (and several others) have used reason, logic and evidence to prove their case. I'm not as qualified as Gabybee, but have an economics qualification, a degree in something else and real world experience and I agree. Feek &co. either can't or won't see it - it's like religion, you either believe or you don't and nothing will change their minds. Ironically, after retiring early, I've now found myself working part time for minimum wage, which is £7.50 an hour in the U.K., or around $9.56. Thankfully, it's not my only means of support...
LOL, wow! I am happy you guys got an education; good for you. Although it's been over 30 years since I got my degree I still like to think I am an intelligent person capable of reason and learning new things. The simple truth is I am basing my beliefs on what I have seen and experienced over the last 50+ years. I am a professional and own a successful business and right now employ about a dozen people. The people who work hard and do a good job for me are rewarded by increased wages and benefits. Those that don't; don't last long. I have always treated employees with respect and treated them fairly so this world that you guys obviously live in is far different than mine. It certainly doesn't make me wrong or you right; it's just your experience and belief which is diametrically opposed to mine. I do think it's sad that because I don't agree with your assessments that you resort to insults. I am neither intimidated or impressed by your education, your views which seem woefully limited or your dogma. I hope I am wrong and increasing minimum wage solves everyone's problems; although I am sure that is a pipe dream. Good luck with your future endeavors!!
Surely the aim should be to give those that follow us a better world. We are paying the price for decisions made a generation ago. Just as today's decision will affect the next generation(s). So we may not see the benefits or consequences of those actions.
Says the individual that took a civil fact-based debate into a needless ad hominem tirade based on a close-minded worldview...
Excuse me? Talk about close minded; perhaps you should look in the mirror. It seems to be your usual approach so quite frankly I am not surprised by your endless attacks and baiting. I find it funny that you accuse me of a tirade; one that doesn't exist, lol. I really hope you change the world; I will be looking forward to it but in the interim period I will continue to work and make a living in the real world; not your fantasy.
It won't help people who are retired and on fixed incomes, it will hurt them as inflation rises. Is anything? Social Security is already going bankrupt and its cost of living adjustments are just a fraction of what actual inflation is. Many other retirement plans offer no COLA at all, and a lot of those are in financial trouble too. That's simply your imagination. I have no idea what kind of work ethic you have. If you want my opinion you should probably look hard at becoming a comedian. I sense that you could do well in that profession. ---------------
Frankly I welcome reading a debate that doesn't devolve into a pissing contest. You have presented experience based examples of the real world, how can that not be relevant?
Real world examples: I live in Massachusetts. Minimum wage is $11.00 here. And Massachusetts is the #1 state in per capita GDP in the U.S. at $65,545. Feek61 lives in Florida (I'm guessing based on his Sunshine State note). Minimum wage in Florida is $8.10. Florida is #40 in GDP per capita at $39,543. Source. You are welcome to your own opinions, but you are not welcome to your own facts.
More Real World Examples: Here are some facts; the adjustment for cost of living in Florida verses the cost of living in Massachusetts - adjusted for cost of living a $40K salary in Florida is equal to $73,870 in Massachusetts Source: http://www.bestplaces.net/cost-of-living/jacksonville-fl/boston-ma/40000 This means the $8.10 minimum wage in Florida based on cost of living is higher than in Massachusetts. Not sure what your point is.
I see, now that you think you have found your new talking point, you intend to use it to its fullest. When somebody is born with a silver spoon, gets to start his business with a million dollar loan from Daddy, from whom he'll go on to inherit a very sizable fortune, and he still manages to have to file for bancruptcy four times? Yeah, that's on him. Which is why raising the minimum wage, single payer health care, pensions and social security deserving of that name, as well as raising taxes on big businesses and the super-rich, are not just single issues existing in a vacuum, but are all connected with each other. Aside from you leaving out the part where I noted your accusation of me not caring about retirees; I certainly know that you have no idea what kind of work ethic I have, but it wasn't just my imagination when you wrote: If that wasn't a judgment of my work ethics or career plans, please explain yourself. I've heard that recommendation before, but those people managed to come off as more sincere.
Debunking the myth that raising the minimum wage causes economic stagnation. If that were the case, the citizens of Massachusetts wouldn't literally be leading the nation in economic activity. Also... You can't possibly be trying to compare Jacksonville, Florida with Boston. Cost of living is offset by quality of life. And on that front... Boston is #2 in the nation. And #34 in the world. Jacksonville does not register on either ranking.
GabyBee, I'm not comparing the two; just following up on your lead. FWIW, I live at the Beach, you couldn't pay me to live in Boston. Regarding quality of life; mine is good and I am grateful for it so I really don't care or need to research it because I'm not moving anywhere. I really only care about my opinion but I am glad that you seem so happy and proud of your city; congrats! Still not sure why you feel the need to try to prove you are superior; but If it makes you feel better, great!
I am reluctantly in favor of $15 minimum wage. It's borderline impossible to survive on this little. I just crunched the numbers and it's the absolute minimum to be able to afford a room in a shared apartment. But I do think that it should be different for different cities and states. I'm sure somewhere in the country this is enough to rent out a full apartment on your own.
The actual history of minimum wage increases does not cause inflation at all. In fact, wages are actually much lower today in terms of real dollars than they were in previous years, having hit a high water mark in 1968 at $1.60/hr ($10.75/hr in 2014 dollars). Source. Additionally, if you adjust the minimum wage for inflation, wages have been nearly stagnant since 1980 with the introduction of so-called "trickle down" economics. An economic theory that has been thoroughly debunked not just by academic study, but by empirical evidence. Asking for an increase of the minimum wage to $15, or even to "just" $10, would be returning the minimum wage to its previous standing in terms of real dollars, as adjusted for inflation. Source. And any notion that minimum wage workers are "lazy" is utterly nonsense. U.S. worker productivity is as high as it has ever been in the nation's history. But what has people so frustrated is that wages have not kept pace with increases in worker productivity. Nearly all of the gains from increased economic productivity have gone to the so-called "1%", while the people actually doing the work have had stagnant wages since the early 1980s. See graph below: The greater societal issue that this has generated is that the level of income inequality between those at the top and those at the bottom is now at the highest point since 1928. Source. And if you've read history, you'll know that the 1920s were just the party that never stopped...
Gaby are you supporting there will be no inflation if a minimum wage is increased? The benchmark you have started from is a comparison of real dollars with a reference to 1968. Isn't the consideration about comparing 2017 as the benchmark with what will be projected with the current climate's situation? Yes I understand we only ever have past performance to gauge possible trends. Balancing these real dollars with projected rises in costs but it still interprets to inflation. "Since the minimum wage is not pegged to the rate of inflation, the purchasing power of the minimum has lagged behind the rising costs for goods and services over time". (TIme article you provided) I'm just asking if costs of goods and service naturally rise over time, when a business needs to compensate for paying more for a minimum wage employee, how is the business going to fund it? I don't assume minimum wage earners are lazy so that's kind of a wasted argument here. I have been minimum wage at times in my life. Usually farm work. Now that is an interesting environment to consider cash in the hand and cheap labour alternatives. I don't have a graph for it but just my experience. Sometimes real, (as in experience) life, teaches you lessons as well. How many times has someone offered to do a job for you saying it will be cheaper if you give them cash? Foreign students working virtually free. Why pay an increased minimum wage if you can get around it? It's not all the super rich that play the system and hoard money just because they can.
So it's your contention that the only people bearing any fault for their own circumstances are the very rich? Because that's your implication. ---------------
I got a question when it comes to small business's. Don't most of these places basically service niche customers nowdays? People who go to these places are doing well enough they don't have to settle for Wal Mart or dollar stores to shop. Even if a small business had to raise costs of it's goods to help pay it's employees the people who are going to these stores are doing well enough to be able to afford any increase in prices. Also if you do tax breaks or subsides shouldn't you kind of want to kind of force your representatives to make sure they go towards the middle class instead of them going to the super rich? Why don't small business owners get upset that money is being sent to oil companies or being wasted on pork spending for the military instead of them? Even if you don't believe in liberal ideas why can't people see that the republican leadership is lying to them? You would think their would be some kind of split in the party much like it is with democrats were you got the never ending battle between people who are okay with moderate/corporate democrats and people who want more progressive people in power like a Bernie Sanders or a Elizebeth Warren. Also even if people were to pursure a career to get out of their current situation what are they supose to live on until they achieve that goal. Even if their really were tons of lazy people out their who are poor because of how lazy they are and they choose to change that aproach how does that help them here in the year 2017? Maybe with luck they will be living it up by the year 2020 but until then how is someone going to live on a salary that doesn't help make pay the bills or buy food? The entire argument seems to be built around the idea of what people can achieve but doesn't seem to have any answers for the here and now until people reach those achievements. Maybe that is because when they were working their way up things hadn't regressed to the point where some of the issues facing people today weren't as bad as they currently are or maybe even they didn't exist at all. My dad started his business in the 80's and he had success but if he tried that in 2017 I think their is a good chance he would have failed and it can't be because of liberal things like unions and welfare because those things have slowly been watered down and nearly destroyed in the years since Reagon. Can't people make the connection that if they are having problems with running a small business it might have something to do with the people who have basically took over the country in the 80's and have been running it ever since? Seems weird to blame liberals when we haven't had much impact on the economy in a very long time. At best we might have been able to add a few band aids like Obama Care but nothing that seems to really last. Jason
Is that really all you have to say to me? Seriously? I guess, if you won't explain your "give you and excuse to stay in a minimum wage job all your life" comment, I'm afraid I'm gonna have to assume that my assessment was correct. Now, to answer your question, actually not even the very rich are to blame for their own mistakes, not entirely. Because our surroundings have an effect on us. Poverty breeds frustration, frustration breeds violence and apathy. People growing up in poverty learn from society that they have no value, that they don't matter, and with no jobs available, they see no future for themselves. When you see that society has given up on you, why should you keep following society's rules? Now, of course, most people will still work hard. But there are people who will learn that there's no way out and just resign themselves to make do with the little they have and not waste energy on a hopeless quest to climb up in the social hierarchy. And some people will be convinced that the only way to get to what this society values, money and power, is through crime. And then you have the rich and super-rich, specifically those who were born into this life of privileges. Because, if you were taught from day one that you are entitled to only the best things in life, that you don't have to work, but have others work for you, that you can treat these people working for you like shit without repercussions, then that's what you will believe and that's how you will behave when you're grown up.
Such increases are small and don't come close to wiping out the beneficial effects of the minimum wage increase--that's the whole point. Working people at the low end of the scale get more spending power. Simple. Are you sure you understand economics? This is a joke, right? You don't really believe that most CEOs started from the bottom, never got a helping hand, just worked their way up out of their own gumption and fortitude? Given how many new businesses fail, this is probably the worst advice you could give anyone. "Risk it all on the exceedingly rare chance you might be successful!" This is also terrible advice in general: if everyone was running their own business, there'd be nobody doing the work at the low end of the scale. Uhhhh, $15 an hour would be coming from the employer, not Uncle Sam. lolwut I just think it's asinine that we want people to use minimum wage jobs as stepping stones to something better while at the same time making those jobs pay so little you actually can't use them as a stepping stone to anything, because they're poverty wages and this is a country where one unexpected accident or serious illness can destroy your life in a heartbeat. Ah yes, the classic "I did it, and thus so can anyone," as if one individual's personal experience represents the totality of possibilities. I always wonder how some people grow up to have such tunnel vision. It's alright, we don't need to change your mind, just get ready to open your wallet. Actually it is. Since it apparently has to be said over and over: price increases from minimum wage hikes are minimal; they are known to have a temporary but noticeable brake effect on hiring. Since we're currently at full employment, that's not a huge deal. I guarantee you the prices don't come close to doubling, which is clearly what you and others are implying. It's funny how people who've already "made it" love to say this, with the implication that "life doesn't suck for me, but too bad that it sucks for you, don't expect me to do anything about it." You know, if the minimum wage is raised, then a lot more jobs become "good paying jobs." The jobs that have left aren't coming back. You keep saying those opposing you are talking fantasy--I'm afraid that's you. You're basically saying, "we can't raise the minimum wage, instead we must wait for this magical fantasy scenario to happen that doesn't actually happen in real life." Companies that are outsourcing to China and other countries with cheap labor are never going to bring those jobs back at the levels necessary to reverse current trends. So we need to give up waiting and work on correcting the situation in other ways--like making sure people at the low end of the income scale get some help. Yeah, I'm sure people bringing home more money than they did before will agree. How do you determine who is working hard and doing a good job vs. who isn't? Not a troll question, this is a notorious problem in business management. I would trust well-researched data over someone saying "this wasn't my experience so it must not be a problem."