Retro Review: Valiant

[TrekToday]

Jake and Nog are rescued from the Dominion by a Starfleet ship crewed by young officers determined to prove themselves. Plot Summary: Jake Sisko accompanies Nog to carry a message for the Nagus to Ferenginar, but their runabout is attacked by Jem’Hadar ships. The two are rescued just in time by a sister ship of […]

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[publiusr]

One of my favorites.

 

[trekshark]

re-watched it a few days ago. I like it
wish they hadn't screwed up Nog's rank insignia

what gets me is the torpedo results in a super huge fireball yet ends up doing no real damage. I'd have made it a smaller fireball or made it do at least some damage.
I know, the point of the episode was to show them to be young and over confident.

and I disagree with Jake, I could totally see Sisko taking the defiant on that same mission

 

[Ithekro]

I kept wondering if in fact Nog outranked them all and should have been captain by being the superior officer on deck in a crisis.

Sure he's an ensign and not in command red, but the rest of them are cadets.

 

[PhoenixClass]

I like this episode too. I could see Sisko attmepting a mission like this but we need to remember that the conditions would be very different. Sisko would have the benefit of much more research and preparation, not to mention a cloaking device. I agree with Jake that his father would not have attempted the mission under they same circuk stances.

Also, if I remember correctly, Sisko would gave frozen up like Watters did. I remember thinking, it didn't work, now run! But he froze up and they did not escape. Sisko would have had a backup plan.

 

[Danny99]

Too bad the Valiant's crew was all so insufferable. Even the sympathetic character of Collins was brutal.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I kept wondering if in fact Nog outranked them all and should have been captain by being the superior officer on deck in a crisis.

IIRC, Watters could not have been relieved except by Starfleet itself, since his authority came directly from the Valiant's actual captain (Ramirez). So Nog couldn't have taken command.

That being said, Nog was so star-struck by Red Squad that he wouldn't have taken command even if he could have.

On that note: As dickish and suicidal as Red Squad were, I'm sure the Klingons loved it. That's exactly the kind of death that a Klingon would love - sacrificing oneself against a superior foe. To die in battle like that is what every Klingon aspires to. So once the Klingons found out about this I'm sure they started writing songs about Red Squad...

 

[Ithekro]

I wonder if this was Starfleet's way to get rid of Red Squad, a unit that was part of a failed coup. An elite unit in an organization that seems to be set up to not have such elite units. It gets them from time to time (crew of USS Enterprise(s)), but it is suppose to work by having anyone be able to switch ships and stations without too much of a problem.

 

[kkt]

I think in real military organizations, a real commission outranks a temporary commission. Nog should have been in command as soon as he found out the situation. If it had been Worf coming aboard, he wouldn't have meekly accepted the orders of a cadet with a battlefield commission as captain.

It strains credibility that even the most gung ho cadets would continue the mission for months and months without any communication with Starfleet Command.

It's also very questionable that Starfleet would have used one of their very best warships on a training mission when they're in the middle of a war they could easily lose. Did the US Navy in WW II send the aircraft carrier Enterprise off on a training cruise?

That said, though, I agree with reviewer. Strong performances by the principle cast forgives a lot of plot holes.

 

[Ithekro]

USS Enterprise (CV-6) and USS Saratoga (CV-3) were used for training night pilots during the middle of the war for later use as night carriers during the last year of the war.

 

[kkt]

USS Enterprise (CV-6) and USS Saratoga (CV-3) were used for training night pilots during the middle of the war for later use as night carriers during the last year of the war.

Okay, but it looks like that was a matter of a few weeks, not months or a year. And the training was done while the carrier was steaming from Pearl Harbor to the Philippines, so it was time they would have been idle anyway.

 

[Ithekro]

Also by 1944, those two carriers were not the top of the line anymore. The Essex-class was filling that role. The two night carriers were the two Pacific pre-war survivors of 1942. USS Ranger was the Atlantic survivor.

This episode was also there to show the audience that the Defiant-class was not invincible. This was the first one we see destroyed.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

They don't have real ranks. they're all acting something, just as Wesley was acting ensign before he went to the academy and became a cadet, after which he screwed up but that's another story... So Nog is in fact the only one with a real rank and he accepts to trade that rank for a fake one...

BTW, they are very forgiving in the academy: I mean, Wesley first screws up by partaking in a cover up in a wrongful death case and then he betrays his Captain in the Native American thing and goes on to live in "another plane of existence" and still we find him, years later at the Captain's table in a star fleet uniform (Nemesis)... Am I the only one to find that... improbable?

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

I liked the point about breaking up the Red Squad cadets in order to give them experiences more similar to those of their colleagues. It would also avoid perpetuating the view that Starfleet's elite trainees can learn only from one another--something repeatedly suggested whenever Red Squad is mentioned.

One wonders why Nog wanted to be part of such a group in the first place. I found both Watters and Farris insufferable--and I didn't much care for Collins, whom I thought should have been relegated to flying a desk as Kirk was at the outset of TWOK. More than that, I was appalled at Nog's seeming inability to see the situation for what it really was. His experiences on DS9 should have given him the edge on his Academy counterparts, but he was willing to throw his life away for the sake of a daredevil stunt.

--Sran

 

[starburst]

I kept wondering if in fact Nog outranked them all and should have been captain by being the superior officer on deck in a crisis.

Sure he's an ensign and not in command red, but the rest of them are cadets.

I think in real military organizations, a real commission outranks a temporary commission. Nog should have been in command as soon as he found out the situation. If it had been Worf coming aboard, he wouldn't have meekly accepted the orders of a cadet with a battlefield commission as captain.

Ever since watching this episode I have wondered what would have happened if an experienced officer had been on the Runabout. Like you say Worf wouldn't have stood for Watters retaining command.

Thing is would Watters and his rather fanatical crew have allowed Worf or Dax to simply take over? Or if Riker, La Forge or Data had been picked up? I have a feeling they would have been so embedded with their own egos they would have seen their provisional ranks as final and binding to anyone below the rank of Captain.

That said I think it would have to be a Captain such as Sisko or Picard to sway Watters out of the centre seat but agaiin you can bet they would have mutinied if they turned the ship around and headed for home.

Good episode, some great character growth for Nog and a nice call back to him wanting to be a part of Red Squad. A very different episode for Jake too struggling to reason with his best friend.

 

[Ithekro]

Red Squad did have a respect for Captain Sisko, so they probably would have handed the ship over regardless of orders.

Also there is senority. Sisko and Picard have been captains longer than Watters, so would have senority over him, and therefore be the highest ranking officer onboard.

However, by all logic, Nog would have senority just by being an actual ensign. Though the question of department comes into play. Lt. Bashir would also outrank Watters and Nog, but he's a medical doctor, not a line command rank. He would usually not be given command of any ship even if he was an admiral. Nog is engineering, rather than command. Would Watter's, a command cadet, outrank Nog, an engineering ensign? Regardless of Watter's unconfirmed field promotion to Captain.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Most engineering officers can be qualified in command as well (Scotty and Geordi, for example). So no, being an engineer would not disqualify someone from a command role.

 

[Ithekro]

Geordi had been command track prior to becoming Chief Engineer. Mr. Scott is unclear.

The novels have Scott being command track up to taking the "No Win Scenerio" (which he also cheats, just in an engineering fashion - he still loses.) and is then transfered to engineering track by the Admiralty.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

There's also Trip. He was an engineer from the get-go, and his first try at command was very uncomfortable, but he grew to be a capable commander.

 

[sonak]

Too bad the Valiant's crew was all so insufferable. Even the sympathetic character of Collins was brutal.

this is what I can't stand about the episode.