Katra probably doesn't flee the body until the host is dead. Spock was just telling his Katra where to go when he ceased to be.
TWOK: Why did the sacrifice have to be Spock's?
- Thread starter alpha_leonis
- Start date
Katra probably doesn't flee the body until the host is dead. Spock was just telling his Katra where to go when he ceased to be.
But how long in advance can one do that? Sarek seemed convinced that the isolation wall would have kept Spock's katra from going into Kirk, and he should know...
I guess it really is a complete backup copy, although when Spock is restored, it seems to be even more: Spock seems to be recalling his own death (or at least being dead), things that wouldn't be included in the backup copy yet. Or then the restored body wasn't quite that blank.
Timo Saloniemi
I guess it really is a complete backup copy, although when Spock is restored, it seems to be even more: Spock seems to be recalling his own death (or at least being dead), things that wouldn't be included in the backup copy yet. Or then the restored body wasn't quite that blank.
Timo Saloniemi
Well, he couldn't touch Kirk. There likely has to be physical contact before death between the person dying and the receiver.
The Search for Spock said:
So touch would seem to be an integral part of the transfer process.
Much like the rest of Star Trek, it doesn't pay to look too closely.
Well, Spock did give command of the Enterprise over to Kirk earlier in the movie (the scene in Spock's quarters -- "The ship is yours."). It was Kirk in the captain's chair calling the shots and Spock at his science station after that.
If not Spock, it should've been Kirk. Or, it could've been Kirk who knew what needed to be done and bolted from the bridge for the engine room. Spock could've suddenly realized what Kirk was thinking and set out to follow him. He catches up with Kirk, words are exchanged, and Spock pretty much says, "I'm sorry, Jim, but I can't let you do this," neck-pinches him (maybe gives Kirk his katra) and goes on to do the job himself.
About some things in the OP. Nimoy was lured to the movie by the promise of a death scene. About the brilliance of the scene and it being one of the greatest moments in all movie history goes, I'd say that's pretty strong hyperbole, but different strokes for different folks.
That's the question - is touch necessary for katra transfer, or merely for "priming" katra transfer like BillJ suggested? If the latter, the katra could jump through solid neutronium once Spock had prepared somebody to receive it, but that somebody couldn't be Kirk because he only arrived after priming became impossible - hence the duo reviews the records and sees McCoy was primed instead.
Both interpretations remain possible, although I'm personally inclined to think that the actual transfer took place when Spock said "remember" and nothing happened after Spock sealed himself in the chamber.
As for the Captain giving his or her life to save the ship, Spock would probably be the logical skipper type: if one of his underlings had more skill, and could complete the job more quickly and with better odds of success, it would be the underling's time to die. Grandstand stunts wouldn't be Spock's style.
Timo Saloniemi
I most likely agree with you. Another poster made a good point that Resurrected Spock after the Fal Tor Pan seems to remember parts of the death after the physical contact with McCoy had ended (mostly the conversation with Kirk through the radiation wall). But then, McCoy was a witness to that conversation, so perhaps Katra-Spock would remember it from McCoy's perspective.
How long could that possibly TAKE?Surely radiation suits of this time period are specifically designed to be put on in a hurry, wouldn't you think? Just like hospital greens are today. They're made so a doctor can put one on lickety-split and not have to waste time fiddling with it.
If Trek's radiation suits aren't like this, what use are they? If there's a crisis situation with radiation, there won't be time to spare. So it doesn't inspire confidence to think that suits like this take too long to put on.
There's a difference between radiation sealed and contained and residual radiation. Going in the chamber was death, no way around it. So why go in and shield yourself? So you can live another 15 minutes burned to a crisp?
It helped T'Pol traverse the desert while Archer needed sunglasses to compensate.
I disagree.
Spock was going to sacrifice himself in Empath even though McCoy was the 'logical' choice.
Plenty of times he volunteered to stay back, jumped in front of thorns, risked his life for others. He was a 'damn hero' like Kirk, Data, Janeway, Lazarus (good), McCoy, (and probably a few others who I can't think of now).
Good points.
And I guess Spock could count on the crisis being fully resolved with his sacrifice: the ship didn't need her captain, as Kirk was aboard to fill the slot.
But if Spock thought that personal heroics would mean 22.82 seconds of precious time wasted, he'd probably still choose the faster specialist. Although delegating might well consume said seconds in most types of crisis, especially as Spock might not be able to count on others immediately volunteering to die.
Timo Saloniemi
And I guess Spock could count on the crisis being fully resolved with his sacrifice: the ship didn't need her captain, as Kirk was aboard to fill the slot.
But if Spock thought that personal heroics would mean 22.82 seconds of precious time wasted, he'd probably still choose the faster specialist. Although delegating might well consume said seconds in most types of crisis, especially as Spock might not be able to count on others immediately volunteering to die.
Timo Saloniemi
Not too sure who else beside Spock and Scotty would be qualified to do such an esoteric repair job with a crew of trainees still shell shocked from battle. Kirk perhaps, since he was shown to be a master of reconfiguring systems like the Enterprise Bs deflector...
On the other hand, Pike was seriously burned by the delta radiation. Spock had a bit of melty-face going on, but neither his skin nor his uniform were visibly charred like Pike's face was.
My first thought was that maybe it was a ratings question like the color of the Klingon blood in STVI. But then, STII was the same movie that gave us the Ceti Eels, and Khan's half-burned face. So I'm not sure that the engine room whatever-it-was was actually intended to be Pike's Delta radiation.
You know, after reading some of these posts, I realize that in retrospect, I'm glad the idea for the "remember" meld was added at the last minute. Because had it been planned out in advance, the obvious choice would have been Kirk, as noted above, not McCoy. A scene where Kirk starts to do the repair himself, Spock neck pinches him out of the way, melds with him, and then completes the repair.
However, because the meld was added at the last minute, and McCoy was in the scene, we got McCoy. And that added for some wonderful dramatic moments for De Kelley in the next film, as he confesses to the unconscious Spock how he feels about him.
However, because the meld was added at the last minute, and McCoy was in the scene, we got McCoy. And that added for some wonderful dramatic moments for De Kelley in the next film, as he confesses to the unconscious Spock how he feels about him.
I question the premise of your question. It did not HAVE to be Spock. It was a crisis situation. Scotty was ill. Someone had to act. Maybe many crew members were competent and well enough to do the job. Spock was the one who took the initiative. The story is suggesting this is how heroes are. He didn't debate it or make a big deal of it. He had a chance to act, and he happened to be the one who stepped up first and put himself in peril for others.
I think I remember in the novelisation for TWOK that Saavik realised what Spock was doing when he went to engineering and wondered if she should go in his place.
Or was that a fan fiction story?
Or was that a fan fiction story?
