Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles - Grading & Discussion

[Agent Richard07]

Learning ninjitsu from a book in the sewer necessitated more suspension of disbelief from me than the whole concept of mutated turtles for some reason.

Several books actually, and people learn exercise and martial arts moves from books, so I don't find it hard to believe.

It also feels like another part of the whitewashing, divorcing Splinter from any actual connection to Japan.

If they go with the idea that Splinter and the turtles are reincarnations of Hamato Yoshi and his sons like in the IDW comics that Trekker referenced, that works for me.

There was no whitewaching, there's no hint that Shredder was ever meant to be cast by a white man. And in a number of ways learning ninjitsu from a book makes Splinter less of a steroetype.

Fitchner said in a 2013 interview that he was playing Shredder. This is presumably before the change was made.

 

[Christopher]

I dont know. You seem pretty lose stating those types of comments. You work closer to the industry then I do, but given the market size you would think making a larger connection would be better.

I don't work close to the industry at all. I write freelance from Cincinnati for a New York-based publisher that does TV tie-ins. But I follow the news and the comments on movies just like any fan online, and there's a disturbing trend in recent years for Hollywood to cast white actors in Asian or other roles, from The Last Airbender to Cumberbatch's Khan to Depp's Tonto to this -- not to mention Hollywood's multiple attempts to get a live-action Akira made with a white cast and a New York setting. I'm not even remotely the only person who finds this trend troubling.

Or to note that, in general, there are staggeringly few Hollywood feature films with nonwhite leads. According to this infographic, of the 100 top-grossing SF/fantasy films, only 8 have protagonists of color, and 6 of the 8 are Will Smith (and one is Disney's Aladdin, who was voiced by a white actor). I agree with you, producers should recognize that more diversity gets them more profits; it's a lesson that TV producers have learned in recent years (belatedly, after previously learning it in the 1960s and then forgetting) and have been increasingly putting into practice. TV, at least, is actually starting to catch up to reality in that regard. But the feature industry is evidently more conservative and targeted toward a narrower audience, and conventional "wisdom" therein is that nonwhite leads don't sell. I don't understand why that's the case, but it's an entrenched prejudice that the feature industry is not really trying to overcome.

 

[Tosk]

Learning ninjitsu from a book in the sewer necessitated more suspension of disbelief from me than the whole concept of mutated turtles for some reason.

It also feels like another part of the whitewashing, divorcing Splinter from any actual connection to Japan.

It seems as though the Japan connection was absent when filming started, what with Fichtner's role being re-shot/re-tooled into "Not Shredder" ...Making Shredder back into Oroku Saki was easy with some re-shoots, but I guess no one could be bothered trying to weave Yoshi into it where he should have been in the first place.

The filmmakers seemingly bent to the will of the people several times...if only they'd listened more closely early on instead of having to backstep.

 

[Cyke101]

Learning ninjitsu from a book in the sewer necessitated more suspension of disbelief from me than the whole concept of mutated turtles for some reason.

It also feels like another part of the whitewashing, divorcing Splinter from any actual connection to Japan.

There was no whitewaching, there's no hint that Shredder was ever meant to be cast by a white man. And in a number of ways learning ninjitsu from a book makes Splinter less of a steroetype.

In addition to Agent Richardson's and Tosk's points about script rewrites regarding Shredder, it's important to note that much of ninjutsu comes from Taoism, as well. If you're trying to gain culture from a book rather than from first hand experience and education, you come dangerously close to being just a poseur, rather than genuinely learning about a culture and the reasons for its traditions. (e.g. suburban white kids who think they know everything about Japan because they watch a lot of Anime, yet know nothing about the country's history, beliefs, or social norms).

Almost every single incarnation of the franchise had Splinter learning first hand from Hamato Yoshi or being Yoshi himself, and thus being able to pass on his tutelage to the Turtles, including meditation, traditions, morals, and problem solving skills, but all with a Japanese bend. It may seem inconsequential, but Splinter's spiritual training played a key role in the first and fourth movies, and the third movie really hammered the point that the Turtles had authentic Japanese (in spirit) connections through the art of ninjutsu. So their Asianness -- their Japanese upbringing -- is very much at the core of their characters.

So it's one thing to make a Japanese character non-Japanese -- that's whitewashing enough for most films. But to try and wipe away that Eastern history and connection, too? That's most definitely whitewashing.

 

[Dream]

Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Raphael Gift Set (Blu-ray 3D + Blu-ray + DVD + Digital HD) from Amazon

http://www.amazon.com/Teenage-Turtles-Raphael-Blu-ray-Digital/dp/B00MENPF6U

 

[CorporalClegg]

I did cave and went to go see it today. I was wondering whether or not to even bother writing up a review, but I can't sleep and I'm bored.

The short of it: it's not a very good film. I saw Guardians just a few nights ago, and I think there's a rather striking contrast in quality. On one hand, there was a franchise I knew nothing about. The world, the characters were all completely foreign to me. Yet I fell in love with it instantly. Here, though, is a franchise I've know and loved most of my life, and I actually contemplated getting up and walking out at one point.

I think the most obvious thing is nothing about it is original. It's like half the scenes in the movie were taken strait out of other genre movies. I saw bits from Batman Begins, Ironman, X2, ASM1 (as someone noted) and they even borrowed from the 90 film in several places.

The humor wasn't original either. For one thing, I don't think I laughed once. The only funny joke in the entire film was Mike's "It's only a mask!" Gag. But I laughed when I saw it in the first trailer. I already noted the "Batman voice" joke above. But there was the fart when they were all stuck in the sewer pipe, the elevator beat-boxing, Mike's rip on the ending of Lost: it's all been done before. Plenty.

The music? Also not very original. Was there even music? The score was mostly non existent; it certainly wasn't on par on what one would expect form a film like this. It was mostly random generic background noise. There was hardly any melody, and it just seemed wholly uninspired. Compare it to the original film which had one of the most memorable scores of the early 90s.

The action was also very generic. Or (say it with me) not very original. The Foot were reduced to Rent-a-Soldiers strait out of True Lies. Bad aim and everything. And they were dressed like any paramilitary bad guy from any sci-fi action TV series of the last ten years. And there really wasn't a lot of action: a few short poorly choreographed fights cut with bad Matrix slow, and a few random uneventful stunts. The only good action scenes were the Batman Begins rip-off and the hostage rescue in the subway at the beginning. Oh yeah. They saved April in the subway. Totally original.

Those were also the place where there was any semblance of ninja. Nothing about the rest of the film even hinted at the idea. And the whole climax took place in broad daylight. Yes! The Ninja Turtles, in daylight!

And the plot. Oy! Okay, so I know Bay's name was on the bill somewhere, so I wasn't expecting much. But I was expecting more than this! For one thing, the movie was just way too short. The pacing is just way too fast. At no point is it stop, slow down and take a breather. And all the tally parts are entirely exposition. There's hardly any actual character interaction what-so-ever. It's basically: crappy action scene -- exposition. Crappy action scene -- exposition. The whole time. At no point do two characters have an actual human conversation. Not once--unless you count Vernon's creepy attempts at flirting, which were so beneath Arnett's talents.

The bad guy plot was one of the stupidest ideas ever put on film, and it's easily the single worst part. Actually, Shredder as a whole was really, really fucking awful. I'm not going to bother with the suit. That's been ripped to shreds enough already. But the thing is, Shred Head has always been a great character. Even the Wile E. Coyotesque folly of the 87 version has its charm. But the comic original, the 2003/12 cartoon versions, and the 90 film are all menacing in their own way, even if the 90 film one seems a bit too Vaderish. Hell, even Super Shredder was scarier than this joker. (And by joker I don't be The Joker. Not even the Romero version.) Basically he just Muhahaed in Japanese a few times, and then did his best impression of the Star Wars Kid.

Fichtner just played Dr. Evil, right down to the "I'm going poison New York city and hold the world hostage for One Million dollars!" Really? That's the best they could do, something strait out of Austin Powers?

Karai was a epic waste. She was just some generic Asian henchgal. She could have been anybody, even Maggie Q. One of the things I always thought was ripe for a film adaption of the Turtles was the development of the Yoshi/Saki/Karai triangle that's, frankly, beyond the scope of a cartoon, but throw it in with the pre-established "family" theme, and there could really be something special. As it is, I don't even know why they bothered calling her Karai, especially since Saki and Yoshi were completely omitted.

The Turtles themselves were totally bland. Their dialog was completely interchangeable, save for Don's nerdy exposition. Really though, for most of it, they could've swapped headbands and I wouldn't have know any different. (For what little there was.)

The one bright spot was Fox. I thought she did a pretty good job. It would have been nice if she'd dyed her hair, but it's really not a big deal and hardly worth mentioning.

And she's really the only reason I didn't give the film a failing grade. I went C- and I thought that was being pretty generous.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

To be fair, the Turtles have always been bad at ninjas - certainly in the movies at least. They're pretty good fighters, but the sneaking around aspects were never great.

 

[DWF]

It also feels like another part of the whitewashing, divorcing Splinter from any actual connection to Japan.

There was no whitewaching, there's no hint that Shredder was ever meant to be cast by a white man. And in a number of ways learning ninjitsu from a book makes Splinter less of a steroetype.

In addition to Agent Richardson's and Tosk's points about script rewrites regarding Shredder, it's important to note that much of ninjutsu comes from Taoism, as well. If you're trying to gain culture from a book rather than from first hand experience and education, you come dangerously close to being just a poseur, rather than genuinely learning about a culture and the reasons for its traditions. (e.g. suburban white kids who think they know everything about Japan because they watch a lot of Anime, yet know nothing about the country's history, beliefs, or social norms).

Almost every single incarnation of the franchise had Splinter learning first hand from Hamato Yoshi or being Yoshi himself, and thus being able to pass on his tutelage to the Turtles, including meditation, traditions, morals, and problem solving skills, but all with a Japanese bend. It may seem inconsequential, but Splinter's spiritual training played a key role in the first and fourth movies, and the third movie really hammered the point that the Turtles had authentic Japanese (in spirit) connections through the art of ninjutsu. So their Asianness -- their Japanese upbringing -- is very much at the core of their characters.

So it's one thing to make a Japanese character non-Japanese -- that's whitewashing enough for most films. But to try and wipe away that Eastern history and connection, too? That's most definitely whitewashing.

Splinter learned how to fight by mimicing Yoshi but there's no way he could've learned the philosophy behind ninjutsu that way.

 

[DWF]

There was no whitewaching, there's no hint that Shredder was ever meant to be cast by a white man. And in a number of ways learning ninjitsu from a book makes Splinter less of a steroetype.

Fitchner said in a 2013 interview that he was playing Shredder. This is presumably before the change was made.

Somehow I can't believe him, there's no way he was cast as Shredder then had his scenes refilmed, it'd mean a major rewrite of the movie.

 

[Aldo]

There was no whitewaching, there's no hint that Shredder was ever meant to be cast by a white man. And in a number of ways learning ninjitsu from a book makes Splinter less of a steroetype.

Fitchner said in a 2013 interview that he was playing Shredder. This is presumably before the change was made.

Somehow I can't believe him, there's no way he was cast as Shredder then had his scenes refilmed, it'd mean a major rewrite of the movie.

Why is it so hard to believe that the movie was majorly retooled before being released? There's all kinds of evidence in the movie to suggest that the Asian version of Shredder was added at the last minute.

Have you seen the b-roll footage? There's scenes that were shot of April and Verne in a lab with a doctor. This is presumably what they would have been doing while the Turtles were fighting Sachs'. If you haven't seen it I suggest doing so, not only does it highlight scenes that were cut from the film, it also has a pretty neat tour of the Turtles home set.

 

[Mr Light]

Maybe at the point he was cast, he was the Shredder, then prior to actual filming they rewrote the script and split the role into two characters.

 

[DWF]

Maybe at the point he was cast, he was the Shredder, then prior to actual filming they rewrote the script and split the role into two characters.

He might've been cast as Col. Sheader back when Splinter and the turtles were meant to be aliens, but I doubt if even that's possible.

 

[Corran Horn]

Fitchner said in a 2013 interview that he was playing Shredder. This is presumably before the change was made.

Somehow I can't believe him, there's no way he was cast as Shredder then had his scenes refilmed, it'd mean a major rewrite of the movie.

Why is it so hard to believe that the movie was majorly retooled before being released? There's all kinds of evidence in the movie to suggest that the Asian version of Shredder was added at the last minute.

Have you seen the b-roll footage? There's scenes that were shot of April and Verne in a lab with a doctor. This is presumably what they would have been doing while the Turtles were fighting Sachs'. If you haven't seen it I suggest doing so, not only does it highlight scenes that were cut from the film, it also has a pretty neat tour of the Turtles home set.

I think it's certainly believable. If you remove the scene where Sachs talks to Shredder (calling him master) and sub-out that lab sequence with Sachs, Vernon, and April that's all it would take IIRC. I think that's where he mentions Shredder raised him, too.

 

[Christopher]

Almost every single incarnation of the franchise had Splinter learning first hand from Hamato Yoshi or being Yoshi himself, and thus being able to pass on his tutelage to the Turtles, including meditation, traditions, morals, and problem solving skills, but all with a Japanese bend. It may seem inconsequential, but Splinter's spiritual training played a key role in the first and fourth movies, and the third movie really hammered the point that the Turtles had authentic Japanese (in spirit) connections through the art of ninjutsu. So their Asianness -- their Japanese upbringing -- is very much at the core of their characters.

And in the current animated series, Splinter actually speaks Japanese from time to time, and there's more specific terminology from Japanese being used (for instance, Splinter training April as a kunoichi, basically the term for a female ninja).

What's unfortunate, though, is that they cast the African-American Kevin Michael Richardson as Shredder, and though Richardson is an amazingly versatile voice artist in most respects, he doesn't know how to do a Japanese accent or pronounce Japanese names and terms, which is a chronic annoyance.

To be fair, the Turtles have always been bad at ninjas - certainly in the movies at least. They're pretty good fighters, but the sneaking around aspects were never great.

They tend to be better at it in the animated series, at least the second and third ones. One of my favorite running gags in the current series is Mikey's fondness for smoke-bomb disappearances -- he and the other Turtles can just toss down a smoke bomb and vanish as if by magic. The show's Mikey is generally portrayed as borderline competent at best in most regards, but he's got ninja vanishing down cold.

 

[DWF]

Somehow I can't believe him, there's no way he was cast as Shredder then had his scenes refilmed, it'd mean a major rewrite of the movie.

Why is it so hard to believe that the movie was majorly retooled before being released? There's all kinds of evidence in the movie to suggest that the Asian version of Shredder was added at the last minute.

Have you seen the b-roll footage? There's scenes that were shot of April and Verne in a lab with a doctor. This is presumably what they would have been doing while the Turtles were fighting Sachs'. If you haven't seen it I suggest doing so, not only does it highlight scenes that were cut from the film, it also has a pretty neat tour of the Turtles home set.

I think it's certainly believable. If you remove the scene where Sachs talks to Shredder (calling him master) and sub-out that lab sequence with Sachs, Vernon, and April that's all it would take IIRC. I think that's where he mentions Shredder raised him, too.

If you remove the lab scene you also take out the need to remove the mutagen from the blood to made the antidote for the poison. Then you have to alter the scene of them saving Splinter at the endd. It's hard to remove one scene unless you remove a good half dozen scenes as well and many of them have visual affects in them that have to be budgeted and storyboarded ahead of time. There's no hint of any extended refilming or post production time.

ETA: Now I understand the confusion, Fictner who was cast a mionth into filming gave confictiong reports about who he was playing.

This is from the Screenrant article.

It was Fichtner who ended up shining a light on the situation, by confirming that he will play Shredder in the TMNT movie reboot. The actor being hired is the latest piece of evidence that this film’s version of the character will be a rather significant departure from tradition (i.e. Shredder’s real identity is Oroku Saki, a Japanese martial artist who dresses in samurai-like armor covered with metallic blades and a mask/helmet).​

Then later on in the article he admits that he'll be playing Sachs.

Screen Rant‘s Amy Nicholson was interviewing Fichtner about Disney’s The Lone Ranger – where he plays a (literally) blood-thirsty version of the Ranger’s foe Butch Cavendish – when she asked him about whether he had started to get down his look as The Shredder in the TMNT reboot.
Fichtner replied as follows:

“I actually play a guy named Eric Sachs [Sounds like Sachs? Hard to understand] in the movie. And then he goes through a few stages in his existence.”
​

He became more vague, after that initial outburst of information:

“But Turtles is coming together very, very cool. There is a whole interesting dynamic that happens in the world of Turtles and all I can really say about it at this point while working on it is that the Turtle film, it’s not like anything that I remember about the Turtles before. I feel like this Michael Bay-produced movie is just gonna really be something else. I’m pretty excited.”​

​

 

[Tosk]

There's no hint of any extended refilming or post production time.

There were reshoots conducted in April 2014.

 

[Christopher]

I think the leaks about Fichtner's role, the Turtles' alien origin, etc. came early in production, before filming had actually started, so there would've been plenty of time to rewrite the script prior to filming, or to hastily rework things during filming or plan ahead for post-production changes.

And really, films in production have changes going on all the time. Nothing's locked in place until the final edit.

 

[Corran Horn]

Why is it so hard to believe that the movie was majorly retooled before being released? There's all kinds of evidence in the movie to suggest that the Asian version of Shredder was added at the last minute.

Have you seen the b-roll footage? There's scenes that were shot of April and Verne in a lab with a doctor. This is presumably what they would have been doing while the Turtles were fighting Sachs'. If you haven't seen it I suggest doing so, not only does it highlight scenes that were cut from the film, it also has a pretty neat tour of the Turtles home set.

I think it's certainly believable. If you remove the scene where Sachs talks to Shredder (calling him master) and sub-out that lab sequence with Sachs, Vernon, and April that's all it would take IIRC. I think that's where he mentions Shredder raised him, too.

If you remove the lab scene you also take out the need to remove the mutagen from the blood to made the antidote for the poison. Then you have to alter the scene of them saving Splinter at the endd. It's hard to remove one scene unless you remove a good half dozen scenes as well and many of them have visual affects in them that have to be budgeted and storyboarded ahead of time. There's no hint of any extended refilming or post production time.

I didn't say remove - I said sub-out. Someone mentioned in the B-roll footage there's another scientist in place of Sachs.

(I didn't watch all of the footage so I don't know)

 

[Cyke101]

There was no whitewaching, there's no hint that Shredder was ever meant to be cast by a white man. And in a number of ways learning ninjitsu from a book makes Splinter less of a steroetype.

In addition to Agent Richardson's and Tosk's points about script rewrites regarding Shredder, it's important to note that much of ninjutsu comes from Taoism, as well. If you're trying to gain culture from a book rather than from first hand experience and education, you come dangerously close to being just a poseur, rather than genuinely learning about a culture and the reasons for its traditions. (e.g. suburban white kids who think they know everything about Japan because they watch a lot of Anime, yet know nothing about the country's history, beliefs, or social norms).

Almost every single incarnation of the franchise had Splinter learning first hand from Hamato Yoshi or being Yoshi himself, and thus being able to pass on his tutelage to the Turtles, including meditation, traditions, morals, and problem solving skills, but all with a Japanese bend. It may seem inconsequential, but Splinter's spiritual training played a key role in the first and fourth movies, and the third movie really hammered the point that the Turtles had authentic Japanese (in spirit) connections through the art of ninjutsu. So their Asianness -- their Japanese upbringing -- is very much at the core of their characters.

So it's one thing to make a Japanese character non-Japanese -- that's whitewashing enough for most films. But to try and wipe away that Eastern history and connection, too? That's most definitely whitewashing.

Splinter learned how to fight by mimicing Yoshi but there's no way he could've learned the philosophy behind ninjutsu that way.

And yet, how else would he have learned the philosophical lessons that guide the Turtles' training if not by listening to Yoshi? Splinter wasn't just Yoshi's pet, he was Yoshi's student as well. Yoshi talked to him as a rat (like a petowner would), and simultaneously Splinter had enough grasp to understand -for example, he knew the details of the disputes with Oroku Saki. Heck, he even knew how to pronounce his master's name after mutating (unless there's some great way to interpret names through ninjutsu hand seals that I'm missing). In the comics, Splinter would talk about his master's teachings when the Turtles needed more than just fighting, which would show that he was indeed influenced by Yoshi.

 

[DWF]

In addition to Agent Richardson's and Tosk's points about script rewrites regarding Shredder, it's important to note that much of ninjutsu comes from Taoism, as well. If you're trying to gain culture from a book rather than from first hand experience and education, you come dangerously close to being just a poseur, rather than genuinely learning about a culture and the reasons for its traditions. (e.g. suburban white kids who think they know everything about Japan because they watch a lot of Anime, yet know nothing about the country's history, beliefs, or social norms).

Almost every single incarnation of the franchise had Splinter learning first hand from Hamato Yoshi or being Yoshi himself, and thus being able to pass on his tutelage to the Turtles, including meditation, traditions, morals, and problem solving skills, but all with a Japanese bend. It may seem inconsequential, but Splinter's spiritual training played a key role in the first and fourth movies, and the third movie really hammered the point that the Turtles had authentic Japanese (in spirit) connections through the art of ninjutsu. So their Asianness -- their Japanese upbringing -- is very much at the core of their characters.

So it's one thing to make a Japanese character non-Japanese -- that's whitewashing enough for most films. But to try and wipe away that Eastern history and connection, too? That's most definitely whitewashing.

Splinter learned how to fight by mimicing Yoshi but there's no way he could've learned the philosophy behind ninjutsu that way.

And yet, how else would he have learned the philosophical lessons that guide the Turtles' training if not by listening to Yoshi? Splinter wasn't just Yoshi's pet, he was Yoshi's student as well. Yoshi talked to him as a rat (like a petowner would), and simultaneously Splinter had enough grasp to understand -for example, he knew the details of the disputes with Oroku Saki. Heck, he even knew how to pronounce his master's name after mutating (unless there's some great way to interpret names through ninjutsu hand seals that I'm missing). In the comics, Splinter would talk about his master's teachings when the Turtles needed more than just fighting, which would show that he was indeed influenced by Yoshi.

So Splinter as a mere not mutated rat understood Japanese? As you said he knew how to pronounce Yoshi's after he mutated. And I don't know about the comic or cartoon versions but all Splinter says in the first movie was that he learned how to fight by mimicing Yochi's movements, there was nothing about how he learned his philosophy.