Connie - TOS canon nomenclature

[BillJ]

Therefore I suggested this might be a general Starfleet chart showing starships ranging from the stage of construction (NCC-1700) to starships (like the Enterprise) that are still in the pipeline to receive component upgrades before they are to be considered “complete”.

This makes zero sense in a fictional or real-world context. The Enterprise is, at least, fourteen years old at that point. How much more complete can it get? Since components are constantly evolving, a ship could never be considered "complete" under that scenario. Yet, there is one that is at 100% and has a small green bar next to it. The green bar likely means that "NCC-1631/1831(?)" is ready but hasn't left port yet.

Why would Starbase 11 be tracking the progress of every ship in the Fleet and ships that aren't even in service? There are also two ships missing if it is tracking all twelve. Then the Constellation is also missing, there is no "NCC-1017" on that chart.

The only way that chart makes any sense is as a "repair and resupply" tracker. In my opinion.

 

[Maurice]

The only way that chart makes any sense is as a "repair and resupply" tracker. In my opinion.

Yep.

 

[sojourner]

then Matt Jefferies’ hangar deck proposal must equally be meaningless and irrelevant because it didn’t make it to the screen.

Hey, you're finally beginning to understand how canon works! Since we didn't see that part of the hanger deck (taking your word on it, I can't recall myself), canonically, we don't know what it looks like. We can conjecture on it and pull in sources such as Matt for what it may have been intended to look like, but until seen onscreen it's all guess work and not definitive.

Just like your deck plans and your conjecture about why a display model doesn't look like the ship we were given. You can personally choose to believe the wildest, wackiest chain of events that you want. Just don't expect anyone else to.

 

[BillJ]

Admittedly, I haven't spent my life thinking about the intricacies of building Starfleet vessels. But I've spent some watching the 'Star Trek' and reading various books over the years. Like I've said before, I've spent my entire life as a fan of the show (starting in 1975) and in all those years the Enterprise has always been 'Constitution-class' to me.

Is it wrong? I don't know? I do know of the 'Starship Class' plaque near the Enterprise turbolift, a plaque that didn't make its appearance until the series proper started. Could she have been upgraded to 'Starship Class' during the time between the two pilots and the beginning of the series? It's possible. The ship changed some on the outside, some on the inside and had a crew upgrade from 203 to 430. But, to me, it has always felt like 'Starship Class' was something bigger than a single class of vessel. So I've always imagined that the parameters of being a 'Starship' had to do with the size of the ship and how well it was armed. A ship that was super-big or super-well armed weren't considered 'Starships'. Both of those components had to be there for it to be considered one of the big boys.

We have constantly chased two things in this thread, Matt Jefferies drawings during the embryonic stages of development of the pilots and the Starship status chart from "Court Martial" and I'm not sure either are sufficient to answer the questions of what was going on in mid-23rd century Starfleet. The former is what is essentially spitballing, taking and throwing all the ideas out there to see what sticks. That's what happens early in the creative process on pretty much every TV show/movie that I've ever read about. Lots of ideas, very few stick or are needed to be used in the series. The latter is a graphic that was put together in probably a few hours by the art department. To help flesh out the setting of a Starbase, to give it flavor. But I don't think it is really anymore useful.

That is my two quatloos on the overall argument. No one can ever be 'right', no one can ever even claim the high ground because none of this material was ever meant to be gone over with a fine tooth comb.

***

As far as “NCC-1700” goes from the “Court Martial” wall graphic:

I don't think it makes much sense to try and claim that “NCC-1700” was some type of placeholder number for a ship under construction. Too much just logically goes against that being the case. For starters, if this was truly a case of it waiting for its “NCC” number, there should have been an 'XX' there. Not '00' like we see in the graphic. Then, the ship is between ten- and twenty-percent complete. Why would it take an organization like Starfleet so long to assign an “NCC” number to that particular ship? If we take Kirk's line from “Tomorrow is Yesterday” at face value, then there are only twelve or thirteen total vessels (if that) in the “1700” series leaving 86 or 87 available contract/construction numbers. Seems like the contract/construction code would be one of the first things assigned to the project the magnitude of starship construction. Having to go back and change every document related to the construction would be a nightmare and could possibly screw up the accounting of material and man-hours assigned to the project. Finally, I just don't think that the status chart was for ships being constructed. A ship being constructed at ten- to twenty-percent would be a far different animal than a ship being repaired/resupplied at ten- to twenty-percent.

As in all things: everyone's mileage may vary.

 

[Nerys Myk]

It's pretty clear that Starbase 11 is a repair facility.

Captain's Log, Stardate 2947.3. We have been through a severe ion storm. One crewman is dead. Ship's damage is considerable. I have ordered a non-scheduled layover on Starbase Eleven for repairs. A full report of damages was made to the commanding officer of Starbase Eleven, Commodore Stone.
[Stone's Office]

(Kirk is not in his usual gold shirt, but a green one with gold braiding.)
STONE: Maintenance Section Eighteen. The section is working on the Intrepid. Reschedule. The Enterprise is on priority one. That makes three times you've read it, Jim. Is there an error?
KIRK: No. But the death of the crewman.
STONE: Regulations, Captain. And the extract from your ship's computer log confirming this sworn deposition?
KIRK: Kirk to Enterprise.
UHURA [OC]: Bridge here. Go ahead, Captain.
KIRK: Where's Mister Spock with that computer log extract?

 

[BillJ]

It's pretty clear that Starbase 11 is a repair facility.

I don't think it was a starship construction facility either. But the wording from the episode is vague enough that one could claim that nothing contradicts it being a construction yard.

 

[Wingsley]

Why couldn't a repair facility also be a construction yard as well? The two would seem to require the same facilities, no?

 

[Nerys Myk]

Why couldn't a repair facility also be a construction yard as well? The two would seem to require the same facilities, no?

I would think a construction facility would be more expansive, with the ability to build a starship from the ground up.

 

[Mudd]

[Stone's Office]
(Kirk is not in his usual gold shirt, but a green one with gold braiding.)
STONE: Maintenance Section Eighteen. The section is working on the Intrepid. Reschedule. The Enterprise is on priority one. That makes three times you've read it, Jim. Is there an error?
KIRK: No. But the death of the crewman.
STONE: Regulations, Captain. And the extract from your ship's computer log confirming this sworn deposition?
KIRK: Kirk to Enterprise.
UHURA [OC]: Bridge here. Go ahead, Captain.
KIRK: Where's Mister Spock with that computer log extract?

Is the part I bolded a bit of description from the script? If so, I wonder why the writer considered the costuming important in this scene.

 

[GSchnitzer]

It's not from the script. This is from the transcripts of the Closed Captioning. (Whoever posted all the transcript stuff thought it was a data point worth noting and added it in.)

The only costuming issue that's scripted is regarding Stone.

[Stone's Office]
(Kirk is not in his usual gold shirt, but a green one with gold braiding.)
STONE: Maintenance Section Eighteen. The section is working on the Intrepid. Reschedule. The Enterprise is on priority one. That makes three times you've read it, Jim. Is there an error?
KIRK: No. But the death of the crewman.
STONE: Regulations, Captain. And the extract from your ship's computer log confirming this sworn deposition?
KIRK: Kirk to Enterprise.
UHURA [OC]: Bridge here. Go ahead, Captain.
KIRK: Where's Mister Spock with that computer log extract?

Is the part I bolded a bit of description from the script? If so, I wonder why the writer considered the costuming important in this scene.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I wonder if someone jumped to the conclusion that Kirk was on disciplinary review or something like that, by the change in regular costume, even though us hardcore fans know that's not implied there.

 

[GSchnitzer]

As has been posted in another thread, here's some relevant script content (from the September 26, 1966 Final Draft script for "Court Martial:"

From Scene 3:

INT. STONE'S OFFICE

FEATURING chart with legend: STAR SHIP STATUS. Columns
lettered: Major Maintenance...Minor Maintenance...Ships
Incoming...Ships Cleared.

KIRK'S VOICE
[continuing his Captain's Log]
A full report of damages was
made to...

ANOTHER ANGLE - STONE

A NEGRO, whose bearing marks him as a man accustomed to
command. No longer a flight officer, his uniform is some-
what different from Kirk's, who is sitting opposite.

KIRK'S VOICE
...the Portmaster of Star Base
11: Senior Captain Stone.

STONE
I can't possibly have the
Enterprise ready that fast.

Kirk, who has been reading a document, looks up.

KIRK
This is not a scheduled layover,
sir. I have a patrol course to
get back on.
(indicating chart)
Can they wait?

STONE
(considers, then)
If you exercise your
Mission-In-
Progress prerogative...they'll
have to.

KIRK
Consider it exercised.

Stone nods. He pushes button on desk.

STONE
Maintenance Section 18.

SOUND OF CLICK.

STONE
(a look at
the chart)
Your section is working on the
U.S.S. Intrepid. Reschedule.
U.S.S. Enterprise is on Priority One.

Stone clicks off the communicator. Nods at the paper Kirk
has been studying.

STONE
That makes three times you've
read it, Captain. Is there an
error?

(...and then the scene continues on as we know and love.)

So it looks like, generally, you make an appointment to get your starship fixed (or upgraded, I suppose) on a scheduled layover--in which case it's probably first come, first served. But if you have an unscheduled layover, then they'll try to squeeze you in if they can. But if you exercise your "Mission-in-Progress" prerogative because you really need to get back to your patrol route and you just can't afford to be "fit in" to the schedule, then you are made a Priority One and get triaged to the front of the line.

It's pretty clear that, however it ends up looking to viewers and however folks might end up interpreting it, "Starbase M-11" was meant to be a repair facility, not really a construction facility (in the same sense as "I notice that they are doing some construction on the house across the street"). Construction can indeed sometimes mean initial construction, but I think that's not the definition being used here; it's the repair definition. As has been suggested, the notion that the Enterprise was only 80% "completed" after being in service for decades seems wide of the mark.

It's pretty clear that Starbase 11 is a repair facility.

I don't think it was a starship construction facility either. But the wording from the episode is vague enough that one could claim that nothing contradicts it being a construction yard.

 

[BillJ]

From Scene 3:

INT. STONE'S OFFICE

FEATURING chart with legend: STAR SHIP STATUS. Columns
lettered: Major Maintenance...Minor Maintenance...Ships
Incoming...Ships Cleared.

I wonder why the change to what we eventually see on-screen? Not enough resolution on the TV's of the time to see it clearly?

 

[Ithekro]

Later tomorrow, when I have time to dig them up, I can look through a half dozen of so Jane's Fighting Ships to give a perspective on ship class names over time. There were a few ship classes that survived from World War II to the 1970s and at least one class that survived to the 1990s that have their class name changed more than once. And that is without the changing of owner by selling it to another country.

Several destroyers, destroyer escorts, and some cruisers had this happen to them through the 50s and 60s, and the Essex-class carriers for their whole existence. Using Jane's gives a "at the time" perspective on these ships as what would happen in the Federation during the lifespan of the NCC-1701 Enterprise and beyond.

 

[F. King Daniel]

NCC-1700, and her being a class one heavy cruiser of the Constitution-class, is visible in the Star Fleet Technical Manual scans used in The Search For Spock. It's probably visible somewhere in movies I and II as well.

 

[Maurice]

It's not from the script. This is from the transcripts of the Closed Captioning. (Whoever posted all the transcript stuff thought it was a data point worth noting and added it in.)

The only costuming issue that's scripted is regarding Stone.

[Stone's Office]
(Kirk is not in his usual gold shirt, but a green one with gold braiding.)
STONE: Maintenance Section Eighteen. The section is working on the Intrepid. Reschedule. The Enterprise is on priority one. That makes three times you've read it, Jim. Is there an error?
KIRK: No. But the death of the crewman.
STONE: Regulations, Captain. And the extract from your ship's computer log confirming this sworn deposition?
KIRK: Kirk to Enterprise.
UHURA [OC]: Bridge here. Go ahead, Captain.
KIRK: Where's Mister Spock with that computer log extract?

Is the part I bolded a bit of description from the script? If so, I wonder why the writer considered the costuming important in this scene.

Why would closed captioning bother describing something visual?

The quoted text can be found verbatim on from Crissie's Transcript site (http://www.chakoteya.net/startrek/15.htm).

 

[GSchnitzer]

Closed captioning wouldn't bother describing something visible--and it doesn't do so. Whoever harvested out all the captions and slapped them into this website also added in some personal observations--like a shirt color. I don't know why she did that. I guess she intends some "value added" content. (Other websites that also show the closed captioning content don't contain this helpful (or "helpful") additional content. It was inserted by the TrekCore website, and it's information not in the caption logs--just as the speaker of each line also isn't in the captions and must be added by hand. If you check out a different transcriptin site, you'll see Chrissie's additional content isn't there.

It's not from the script. This is from the transcripts of the Closed Captioning. (Whoever posted all the transcript stuff thought it was a data point worth noting and added it in.)

The only costuming issue that's scripted is regarding Stone.

Is the part I bolded a bit of description from the script? If so, I wonder why the writer considered the costuming important in this scene.

Why would closed captioning bother describing something visual?

The quoted text can be found verbatim on from Crissie's Transcript site (http://www.chakoteya.net/startrek/15.htm).

 

[Maurice]

Ah, I see. I misread your post!

 

[Robert Comsol]

This makes zero sense in a fictional or real-world context. The Enterprise is, at least, fourteen years old at that point. How much more complete can it get? Since components are constantly evolving, a ship could never be considered "complete" under that scenario.

Apparently, such a list would be updated should the implementation of new components become necessary. The chart just reflects the current upgrade process of available and known components. Here is a nitpicky detail that supports the theory that the Enterprise did receive such an upgrade at Starbase 11, i.e. the addition of a new pipe in the impulse engine room’s “cathedral” (admittedly, it depends on whether you choose the engine room in “The Conscience of the King” to have been the first attempt to simulate the warp engine room or not. IMHO, usually the alignment of the large “battery” props is a reliable indicator here, which engine room we are in).

Yet, there is one that is at 100% and has a small green bar next to it. The green bar likely means that "NCC-1631/1831(?)" is ready but hasn't left port yet.

It is “1831” and depending on how you acknowledge TNG-R (according to which NCC-1631 is the Intrepid) the Intrepid is not on that chart!
As a yet-to-do-constructions-or-upgrades chart the complete bar of NCC-1831 could just be a reminder to other starbases / facilities that this ship no longer requires updates at this time, because just a short while ago she had been upgraded and will probably be removed from the chart very soon.

Why would Starbase 11 be tracking the progress of every ship in the Fleet and ships that aren't even in service? There are also two ships missing if it is tracking all twelve. Then the Constellation is also missing, there is no "NCC-1017" on that chart.

I need to be more precise. If it just shows all Starfleet starships that still require upgrades, starships like NCC-1017 that no longer require upgrades would not be on that chart. To assume that it is the Starbase 11 starship status chart (hmm…why doesn’t it say “Starbase 11” so the Admiralty could pull these files to see which of their ships are serviced / repaired at which facilities?) would still require an explanation why

• NCC-1631 USS Intrepid is not there and why
• NCC-1701 USS Enterprise is almost done with repairs although she just arrived.

What I think happened is this: Commodore Stone did look at a chart with the starships currently being repaired at Starbase 11 and to see which of his crews were working on which ship (off-screen). Next he projected the starship status chart to see what upgrades Enterprise still required in addition to the repairs because of the ion storm damage (on-screen). He then decided to pull a repair crew from the Intrepid because the Enterprise was in bigger need of repairs (plus upgrades). YMMV.

And I really liked your thoughts in post # 225. I think it’s fair to say that we all try to make things make some sense, even if it’s just pseudoscientific post-post-production fanwork. We all present our theories to test them in public to see how much water they hold or leak. Hopefully, a theory that answers the most questions and doesn’t give raise to new ones has the best chances to achieve some sort of general consensus.

NCC-1700, and her being a class one heavy cruiser of the Constitution-class, is visible in the Star Fleet Technical Manual scans used in The Search For Spock. It's probably visible somewhere in movies I and II as well.

I think you better take a look at the warp nacelles in that display from ST III: TSFS. Apparently the Reliant did more damage to the ship's systems, than we were led to believe.

Hey, you're finally beginning to understand how canon works!

You know that this is just another one of these absolutistic statements you constantly hold me accountable for. I have understood all along how your canon determining methodology works, but it’s not mine.

Since we didn't see that part of the hanger deck (taking your word on it, I can't recall myself), canonically, we don't know what it looks like. We can conjecture on it and pull in sources such as Matt for what it may have been intended to look like, but until seen onscreen it's all guess work and not definitive.

All right, just for argument’s sake I play along, here it goes:

^^ This canon image proves that NCC-1701-A is a refit Constitution Class Starship.

^^ This canon image shows us the bridge of a Constitution Class Starship

^^ This canon image shows us the hangar deck of a Constitution Class Starship

^^ Now, this image shows us the hangar deck of the refit Enterprise, there is no hangar deck back wall but an extended opening just as the TOS canon images suggested (no “X-Ray-Vision”).

^^ This canon image shows us the bridge of the refit Enterprise.

^^ And this canon image tells us that the bridge of the refit Enterprise belongs to starships of the “Enterprise Class”.

Considering the obvious discrepancies / differences, the truly unbiased viewer and 1984 canon disciple has to admit that it stands to reason that one Enterprise belonged to the Enterprise Class (NCC-1701) while the other Enterprise (NCC-1701-A) belonged to the Constitution Class.

If you think that shows I “believe the wildest, wackiest chain of events” I’d say it would be about darn time for you to elaborate why.

Bob

 

[Last Redshirt]

No, it doesn't. It says the simulation bridge is from the Enterprise-class. That doesn't mean anything.