TVH - Temporal "loose ends"

[Robert Comsol]

Did any of these events in the 2260's change history?

Didn't all of these events ("Tomorrow Is Yesterday", "The City on the Edge of Forever", "Assignment: Earth") prove that you can't change history (despite overdramatic speculation to the contrary) but merely assist to make it happen?

Same with "Tribbles and Tribble-ations". It happened as it was supposed to happen, there was only the belief that history could be changed, but it turned out to be wrong, too

Bob

 

[F. King Daniel]

I half suspect that Temporal Invetigations was formed in the aftermath of the Kirk era. Perhaps even well into the 24th century. Thus is seems likely that they can't interfere with time

There's a novel, DTI: Forgotten History, which tells the origins of the Department of Temporal Investigations. It's a result of all of Kirk's TOS and TAS adventures.

I always figured that at the end of First Contact, Picard and Company go to the future but not exactly the one they left, since they altered the past a bit. The problems people had with the idea of ST:ENT can be explained away such as, "Why had we never heard of Archer or the NX-01 Enterprise?" In just a few lines in an early episode, Archer might have told one of his staff how his father planned to name the first warp 5 ship Constitution (or whatever) but Cochrane, who worked alongside Henry, had suggested Enterprise and the elder Archer followed that advice. IIRC, Archer told a story about Cochrane in ENT's Borg episode in which the scientist/inventor occasionally spoke of cyborgs who tried to interfere with humans meeting Vulkins, and some future astronauts who helped him. As an homage to the E-E, he convinced Henry to use the name Enterprise.

I think if FC/ENT changed history, it would break all the direct prequels we see, like the NX-01 crew bios in the USS Defiant (fresh from "The Tholian Web") in "In a Mirror, Darkly" and the (admittedly terrible) finale crossover to TNG.

 

[Shon T'Hara]

Did any of these events in the 2260's change history?

Didn't all of these events ("Tomorrow Is Yesterday", "The City on the Edge of Forever", "Assignment: Earth") prove that you can't change history (despite overdramatic speculation to the contrary) but merely assist to make it happen?

No, McCoy very definitely altered history when he went through the Guardian.

 

[Mytran]

The only evidence we have for that is the clips film reel shown by the Guardian, which it used in order to manipulate Kirk and Spock into fulfilling their predestined part in extant history.

 

[Ithekro]

Well and the USS Enterprise no longer being in orbit after McCoy enters the structure.

 

[Mytran]

A communications blackout is something that even the technology in Kirk's time could accomplish. It would be a doddle for the Guardian of Forever!!!

 

[BillJ]

A communications blackout is something that even the technology in Kirk's time could accomplish. It would be a doddle for the Guardian of Forever!!!

Except we know the intent was that the timeline changed and the Enterprise was gone. That was why we got the climbing shot from Kirk into an empty starscape.

In story, the Guardian seemingly has no motive to change the timeline or change it back. McCoy is likely nothing more than a piece of garbage floating down the river to it. It is probably the focal point of a multitude of different timelines.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

The only evidence we have for that is the clips film reel shown by the Guardian, which it used in order to manipulate Kirk and Spock into fulfilling their predestined part in extant history.

The Guardian's planet is shown with no Enterprise in the vicinity.

A communications blackout is something that even the technology in Kirk's time could accomplish. It would be a doddle for the Guardian of Forever!!!

It may be feasible for the Guardian to cause a communications blackout, but what purpose would it serve to trick Kirk and Spock into believing that their ship has been erased from existence? If the Guardian were as powerful as it claimed to be, why would the fate of a single world matter to it?

--Sran

 

[Mytran]

Except we know the intent was that the timeline changed and the Enterprise was gone. That was why we got the climbing shot from Kirk into an empty starscape.

Oh, I'm not arguing against the original intent. I'm just trying to look at the episode as it fits in the rest of the TOS time travel escapes, which is mostly a "you cannot change history because you are already a part of it" attitude, AKA the Novikov self-consistency principle.
(BTW I'd forgotten abou that shot, it is a lovely piece of work)

The Guardian's planet is shown with no Enterprise in the vicinity.

You know that space is mostly empty, right? In any case, the shot you talking about is shown twice, once just after McCoy goes through and once just after Kirk et al have "repaired" history. Conclusion? the Enterprise could have been on the other side of the planet on either occasion.

It may be feasible for the Guardian to cause a communications blackout, but what purpose would it serve to trick Kirk and Spock into believing that their ship has been erased from existence? If the Guardian were as powerful as it claimed to be, why would the fate of a single world matter to it?

The impact that Starfleet and the Federation had on the rest of the Galaxy, perhaps?

The Guardian of Forever is a tricksy beast; despite declaring its neutrality and supposed disinterest, it seems to protect the landing party from temporal changes, it uploads infomation to Spock's tricorder about the "correct" timeline (breaking the playback function in the process, I guess) and it teleports our three heroes back to their friends when their mission is complete (not to mention a costume change). I'd say there's more going on that is actually stated...

 

[CRM-114]

Greg Cox's Khan novels actually do touch on what happened to all the technology Chekov left behind. It was collected and eventually passed into a top-secret government facility where it was reversed-engineered to develop what would eventually be dubbed the Botany Bay.

 

[alpha_leonis]

Greg Cox's Khan novels actually do touch on what happened to all the technology Chekov left behind. It was collected and eventually passed into a top-secret government facility where it was reversed-engineered to develop what would eventually be dubbed the Botany Bay.

Has there ever been a novel, or story (or otherwise are the folks on this board willing to speculate) about what happened to Bob and the Cetacean Institute after the "disappearance" of Dr. Taylor? Or the whaling ship that saw the decloaking BoP?

 

[shivkala]

I forget where the theory came about, but somewhere I read that people posited that different forms of time travel would have different effects. Namely, the Guardian's form of time travel would result in a change to their timeline, whereas the red matter wormwhole lead to the creation of a whole new timeline. Others, such as the Orb of Time result in a manner of predestined time travel (which would make sense, seeing as how the Prophets exist outside of time. They'd probably have a way of making sure travel through their Orb would not result in any changes to the timeline/creation of a new timeline).

Not sure why a sentient device called the "Guardian of Forever" would provide time travel in a way in which the timeline was changed. Unless it was originally meant to be used to fix errors in the timeline and, as a result, errors caused by its use would result in changes to the timeline.

 

[Robert Comsol]

No, McCoy very definitely altered history when he went through the Guardian.

Where and when? The Guardian of Forever must be a relative of the Wizard of Oz, scaring people with a loud voice.

Obviously he (or it) felt it necessary to motivate Kirk and Spock to go back in time and to do their job (i.e. interact with the timeline to make sure things would happen as they did always happen). That's the only explanation for the Guardian's behaviour I can come up with.

Bob

 

[Franklin]

Wibbley-wobbley-timey-wimey....

Hey, if they're in 1987, that means Khan Noonien Singh is out there with his magical healing blood, which surely would have cured that old lady's kidneys. But I guess a syringe of that isn't covered by most people's insurence...

My guess is Nick Meyer brought attention to some of the time travel consequences and then made fun of them because he doesn't really give a crap about time travel consequences and he was letting us know that he doesn't take it too seriously in this film so neither should we. Just my guess though.

This

Put me down for "this," too. ^^^^^^^^


In "Tomorrow is Yesterday", Kirk finally tells Christopher the Enterprise was accidentally thrown back in time. Christopher responds that they seem to have a lot of those accidents. It's a clear reference to all the UFO sightings. So in that vein, TVH was just more "accidents" that will likely be investigated (or not) and get terrestrial explanations that don't affect the timeline.

-- The sailors were merely hallucinating. It's not like sailors have never imagined beasts and such at sea. Luckily, it was the 1980s and not the 2010s, or every sailor on that ship would've used his phone to take a picture of the Klingon ship.

-- The trash collectors saw a helicopter, it blinded them, and they ran over the trash can.

-- Kirk was either a CIA operative or a Russian spy who wanted Chekov. Either way, he had a James Bond-like laser device that melted the lock on the door. (We know they're keeping really neat stuff from us.)

-- Unless McCoy's pill left any evidence behind to be traced, what happened to the elderly woman will be chalked up to a miracle or fluke.

-- Gillian, sadly, committed suicide in the Bay, her body never found. She was distraught over the whales being released like they were.

-- Scotty feels fine with what he did because he probably left one or two critical things out of his formula for transparent aluminum, or he knows the guy will never be able to crack the matrix.

-- Chekov on the aircraft carrier is the most problematic one. The navy has Klingon technology in their hands if they want to dissect it. However, it seemed the intelligence agents were borderline competent at best, and no one took Chekov too seriously. Some crazy guy playing spaceman somehow got on board. The name doesn't check out in any intelligence base. Someone "stole" him from the hospital, which may create some interest, but when they can't find any leads, it will be "case closed." The disrupter and communicator will be stuck in a drawer somewhere, forgotten.

-- George and Gracie were lost because their tracking devices malfunctioned. For all anyone knows, they are still at sea, or they were hunted down by whalers.

-- Poor Bob was so distraught over the loss of Gillian that he bought her pickup truck and became a drifter in the CA, NV, and AZ deserts. Even though whales are not fish, he could never eat seafood again.