The truth behind Andy Probert's departure from STTNG

[inflatabledalek]

The refit is indeed a thing of beauty, it takes an already great design and just makes it that bit more honed and awesome in every way.

In terms of Berman, I think he was always very good at getting the show made (and indeed, before things went sour he had the reputation of having saved TNG from Roddenberry's poor choices in the first season by guiding it to the peak of TV Trek's popularity), but his choices of who to handle the writing/creative side of the various shows were wildly inconsistent.

So when it worked, Michael Piller being a prime example, you got fantastic televsion. When he made poor choices (and I guess we all have our opinions on that), it just fell apart.

Braga is a great example of that- He wrote some brilliant off the wall insane episodes of TNG, and he's definitely someone you'd have wanted on staff to do a couple of really out there format breaking episodes a year.

But he was clearly a poor choice as showrunner (especially for a show like Voyager where the basic set up of a crew stranded and on a long quest really didn't play to any of his strengths) because that was basically all he could do, so you end with with every other episode feeling like a technobabble bore fest where weird shit happens to the crew with no lasting consequences to them.

I also think by the end of the '90's Berman- and to be fair many of the other people involved- had let the development of television over the preceding decade pass them by completely, DS9 is the only one of the post TNG shows where it felt as if it was being made by people who'd actually seen some other TV made after 1987. Enterprise tried to rally round and do something that felt modern at the end, but the final result looked more like your dad dancing at a disco.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

I mentioned to him, for instance, that in every episode, the Enterprise flies away, horizontally,... suggesting that maybe it could rotate and fly upwards out of frame, or angle downward to veer off to some other destination,... anything but flat. He told me that could never happen (quoting) "because it would confuse the audience".

That was always something that bugged me and made me wonder why we never saw the ships do that. For whatever reason, Berman seemed to have broke away from that belief that it would confuse audiences, because during ENTERPRISE we finally got to see ships move three dimensionally. Before that, I think it was only the finale of TNG that actually did that when introducing the future Enterprise-D.

 

[inflatabledalek]

There's a bit of it in the future stuff in All Good Things, generally I think that, whilst not impossible, it was much harder to do "Out of plane" ship flying with motion control models than it is these days with CGI. Did any model shows do very much of it? IIRC part of made the computer effects on Babylon 5 so groundbreaking was that it really allowed them to go nuts on treating space as three dimensional for the first time.

I do recall an interview with Foundation Image in SFX when they were doing work on season 6 of DS9 where they talked about trying to make the space battles more 3D, but that the producers did ask them to keep it to a minimum so it wouldn't look drastically different from the show's standard style.

Whilst that could arguably be an example of Berman/the franchise not moving with the times very well as they were still splitting the work between models and CGI not having the difference stand out even more by the two styles being choreographed differently makes a degree of sense.

 

[F. King Daniel]

The refit is indeed a thing of beauty, it takes an already great design and just makes it that bit more honed and awesome in every way.

I just wish those nacelle struts were a little stronger. One good shot could separate both and cripple the ship (which I believe is in concept art for an unfilmed alternate TMP ending in The Art of Star Trek)

 

[Relayer1]

Responding to a couple of earlier points -

The refit Enterprise was stunning. Just stunning.

TNG got a LOT better after seasons one and two. It probably wouldn't have without a change in leadership. And we'd have never got DS9, which IMHO was the best of Trek.

 

[Shaka Zulu]

Another Trek vet that jumped ship after the first season. Makes me wonder how the show would have evolved had Probert, Fontana, Gerrold, Justman and others stuck around. I'm glad Piller, Moore, Braga and others eventually took over, it's just an interesting what if.

While I 'respect' their management of the franchise (I'm referring to Berman & Braga more than Moore & Piller, obviously), I think that the show would have been better if Probert, Fontana, Gerrold, Justman and the aforementioned 'others' had been the real showrunners and 'The Great Bird' had been kicked upstairs as he was when the movies were being made (just give him a 'created by' credit, pay him royalties for that, but otherwise, he doesn't run anything at all.) What we got would have been amazing, and instead of a shown that began badly but ended well, we would have go a show that began well and ended well.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

No doubt. I would have loved to see how the show would have been had they had more freedom with the stories and characters. As it is, it feels something of a compromise, whereas when Piller came in he took those restrictions and found ways to work around them to deliver some great stories. I think for many of the TOS vets, it just wasn't what they had hoped when they signed on.

 

[drmick]

Responding to a couple of earlier points -

The refit Enterprise was stunning. Just stunning.

TNG got a LOT better after seasons one and two. It probably wouldn't have without a change in leadership. And we'd have never got DS9, which IMHO was the best of Trek.

But DS9 is the show that Berman paid the least amount of attention to.

There are lots of vignettes out there where Behr and the other DS9 producers came up something, thought that Berman would shoot it down but didn't, much to their shock.

I'm guessing he paid more attention to Voyager and Enterprise, which obviously suffered for it in hindsight

Likewise with the improvement in TNG after season 2, can we really credit that to Berman, rather than the likes of Piller?

 

[JirinPanthosa]

TNG certainly took more exciting creative directions in the Berman era. Season one stories were like they were trying to recreate TOS with TOS-era social issues. Oh, we're on a planet where women are in charge and they're persecuting the men! And all the characters still manage to act like gender stereotypes of one sort or another. And it all ends with women from the planet falling submissively into the embrace of the male colonists, in protest of women not being sex objects!

But it seems from what I'm reading in this thread that Berman had the effect of dumbing down the show based on a lack of respect for the audience, and a blah-ness in visual and musical direction. I mean, what audience is intelligent enough to know that space is, in fact, three dimensional? This concept is far beyond my infantile comprehension. If we could get the season 3-7 writing staff but have guys like Probert in charge of visual direction, that would be the best combination.

 

[publiusr]

When I mentioned that the warp engines would never be running when the ship was in orbit (like a jet fighter parked on a runway apron with it's afterburner blasting away), Rob Legato said: "The ship looks better with the lights on". BUT THEY'RE WARP ENGINES!!!!

When the show was picked up for another season, I was told that Sternbach would be taking my place - fine with me. I soon became a Walt Disney Imagineer and enjoyed a much happier situation-

Well, an locomotive always has a good head of steam even when resting--and I'm sure glows dully in the infrared. I just figured that the warp naceles were rather like that--a nuclear lightbulb type of glow. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_lightbulb

I love both your work and Ricks. I would love to see your idea on what might have followed a refit--pre excelsior/galaxy class...

 

[Maurice]

... I think that, whilst not impossible, it was much harder to do "Out of plane" ship flying with motion control models than it is these days with CGI..

Not really because you just do the camera move horizontally but tilt the camera head to whatever orientation to make the ship look like it's going up on down.

I just wish those nacelle struts were a little stronger. One good shot could separate both and cripple the ship (which I believe is in concept art for an unfilmed alternate TMP ending in The Art of Star Trek)

The concept art (by Andy) shows the ship being hit just aft of the struts, but the struts are not damaged.

 

[Makarov]

Having the ship fly up or down offscreen probably wouldn't confuse people literally, but it would be confusing visually. Isn't that the same reason why when they come upon another ship they are always both oriented upwards?

 

[Trek Survivor]

Berman deserves the bashing he gets. No, he's not stupid, he's just an uncreative asshole. He has no artistic integrity or vision and just wants to make a product that'll make him, and those over him, money.

He didn't want to produce good story-telling, or compelling drama. He wanted to produce a product he could use to sell to make money. And not even *good* product but more like the generic-product that sorta tastes like the name-brand original.

Suffice to say I disagree with almost everything you said here, but particularly "he didn't want to produce good story-telling or compelling drama" and was all about making money. This isn't at all what Berman was about; even some of the detractors who worked with him over the years would never claim this.

Berman cared a great deal about what he was doing - that's not to say he got everything right, but he tried to do the best he could while balancing:
1) Roddenberry's legacy (a personal promise he had made)
2) Fan expectations
3) (Latter years) network interference/involvement
4) Budgetary concerns
5) Writing staff, production staff
...and probably many more things.

He was a show-runner, so no, maybe he didn't care as much as Writer A on episode #46 of X show about the colour of somebody's uniform. He had to balance the macro and micro concerns of a franchise juggernaut on a daily basis.

If you follow or look through Rick Berman's Twitter posts it is undoubtedly clear that he loved Star Trek, took his job as an executive producer seriously, and did his best to protect what he viewed as "Gene's vision", almost to a fault.

Thank you, yes. Very well put.

But DS9 is the show that Berman paid the least amount of attention to.

There are lots of vignettes out there where Behr and the other DS9 producers came up something, thought that Berman would shoot it down but didn't, much to their shock.

I'm guessing he paid more attention to Voyager and Enterprise, which obviously suffered for it in hindsight

Likewise with the improvement in TNG after season 2, can we really credit that to Berman, rather than the likes of Piller?

So the guy can't win? If he blocks other people's ideas he's an ****hole; if he agrees with them, he didn't care or wasn't paying attention??

Maybe he, y'know, just AGREED with the ideas Behr and others brought to him sometimes??

I find it very frustrating that when something worked with Star Trek, it was to ANYBODY'S credit except Berman's. When something went wrong, it was SOLELY down to Berman (or maybe Braga as well if critics are feeling generous).

The whole idea that Berman didn't have much to do with DS9 and that's why it was so good is a completely incorrect assumption. He okayed pretty much most of what was eventually on screen. He was incredibly into the detail, and cared enough to have discussions with those like Behr or Moore about the directions things took.

Remember, his job was huge in scope but he always tried to get involved as much as he could in the smaller elements. Once again, he can't win - if he has no interest in what's going on, we hate on him. If he "dares" to interfere in what Saint Ira Behr is doing, we hate on him...

He had faults, and I'm sure he made some pretty dodgy decisions and upset a few people along the way. But I refute the idea he never cared, or didn't pay close attention, or was 'creatively bankrupt' (although I don't like Voyager, I think Enterprise was very well done - though I haven't watched it all yet). If you've ever read or seen an interview with him, it's clear he cared about Trek a great deal.

And if you like anything Trek from 1987 - 2005, then yes, in some way (either in a big way or a small way e.g. hiring decent writers) you likely have something to thank Berman for.

 

[Borjis]

I like the story of Berman having a Bust sculpture of Gene in his office, with a blindfold over the eyes.

 

[Squiggy]

I'd hardly call Rick Berman stupid, though I know it's very trendy to hate on everything the guy did.

It's been going on for 20 years. Not really a "trend".

 

[MakeshiftPython]

If it wasn't for Berman, we wouldn't have gotten the episode "The Measure of a Man". Roddenberry didn't like that script, claiming it was against his vision because "courts do not exist in the 24th century, humanity figures it out better" and that Data would gladly turn himself in to be dissected, but Berman knew the script would make for a great episode so somehow he made it possible for the script to be put on production, despite Roddenberry's objections. He was also against "Family", claiming the conflict between the brothers Picard didn't fit his vision, but again Berman knew it was a winner and went against those objections.

Berman deserves both the praise and the criticisms, not just one or the other.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Wow, Roddenberry really thought that Data would happily risk his life just because somebody above wanted to see what his insides looked like?

It seems like Roddenberry's vision of Federation government is "A meritocratic autocracy that everybody trusts completely and nobody questions".

Why is it so few people can mentally balance the right to be free with the right to disagree with them about what to do with said freedom?

 

[jimbotron]

Berman brought us gems like These Are The Voyages and A Night in Sickbay, but he also brought us Emissary, The Maquis (1+2), Brothers, and Timeless.

He pushed out Ron Jones, but he brought back Gates McFadden.

He drove ENT into the ground, but he let Behr and Moore do their thing in DS9.

Overall, I'm happy with how it all turned out. (not caring about VOY, ENT and the movies helps)

 

[drmick]

Berman deserves the bashing he gets. No, he's not stupid, he's just an uncreative asshole. He has no artistic integrity or vision and just wants to make a product that'll make him, and those over him, money.

He didn't want to produce good story-telling, or compelling drama. He wanted to produce a product he could use to sell to make money. And not even *good* product but more like the generic-product that sorta tastes like the name-brand original.

Suffice to say I disagree with almost everything you said here, but particularly "he didn't want to produce good story-telling or compelling drama" and was all about making money. This isn't at all what Berman was about; even some of the detractors who worked with him over the years would never claim this.

Berman cared a great deal about what he was doing - that's not to say he got everything right, but he tried to do the best he could while balancing:
1) Roddenberry's legacy (a personal promise he had made)
2) Fan expectations
3) (Latter years) network interference/involvement
4) Budgetary concerns
5) Writing staff, production staff
...and probably many more things.

He was a show-runner, so no, maybe he didn't care as much as Writer A on episode #46 of X show about the colour of somebody's uniform. He had to balance the macro and micro concerns of a franchise juggernaut on a daily basis.

If you follow or look through Rick Berman's Twitter posts it is undoubtedly clear that he loved Star Trek, took his job as an executive producer seriously, and did his best to protect what he viewed as "Gene's vision", almost to a fault.

Thank you, yes. Very well put.

But DS9 is the show that Berman paid the least amount of attention to.

There are lots of vignettes out there where Behr and the other DS9 producers came up something, thought that Berman would shoot it down but didn't, much to their shock.

I'm guessing he paid more attention to Voyager and Enterprise, which obviously suffered for it in hindsight

Likewise with the improvement in TNG after season 2, can we really credit that to Berman, rather than the likes of Piller?

So the guy can't win? If he blocks other people's ideas he's an ****hole; if he agrees with them, he didn't care or wasn't paying attention??

Maybe he, y'know, just AGREED with the ideas Behr and others brought to him sometimes??

I find it very frustrating that when something worked with Star Trek, it was to ANYBODY'S credit except Berman's. When something went wrong, it was SOLELY down to Berman (or maybe Braga as well if critics are feeling generous).

The whole idea that Berman didn't have much to do with DS9 and that's why it was so good is a completely incorrect assumption. He okayed pretty much most of what was eventually on screen. He was incredibly into the detail, and cared enough to have discussions with those like Behr or Moore about the directions things took.

Remember, his job was huge in scope but he always tried to get involved as much as he could in the smaller elements. Once again, he can't win - if he has no interest in what's going on, we hate on him. If he "dares" to interfere in what Saint Ira Behr is doing, we hate on him...

He had faults, and I'm sure he made some pretty dodgy decisions and upset a few people along the way. But I refute the idea he never cared, or didn't pay close attention, or was 'creatively bankrupt' (although I don't like Voyager, I think Enterprise was very well done - though I haven't watched it all yet). If you've ever read or seen an interview with him, it's clear he cared about Trek a great deal.

And if you like anything Trek from 1987 - 2005, then yes, in some way (either in a big way or a small way e.g. hiring decent writers) you likely have something to thank Berman for.

You've lumped me in the big Berman bashers there.

On the DS9 vignettes, it has to be pointed out that Behr and others predicted that Berman would say no. When asked why they thought that was, they've always replied that Berman just didn't pay the same attention to DS9 as he did to the two flagship series it ran beside.

I'm not as au fait with early TNG but I do remember Piller getting all the plaudits before the Internet, he was very much the hands on creative guy, whilst Berman appears to be more the manager of the monies as well as being the yes/no guy for what would be allowed in the Trek universe, without actually being creative himself.

 

[treknician1701]

Okay, bottom line, Berman and Braga were "Company men", and therefore, only had sight on what was best for the STUDIO, not the Trek fans, however, they both did things for Trek as well, and we should thank them for that. That being said, however, if you have an artist, like Andy, who was responsible for the look of Trek since STTMP, the guy who designed the ships, the bridges, the corridors, the pre-LCARS instrumentation panels (Along with Robert Walker) and many more serious scifi aspects to bring Trek to life, you should LISTEN to this man, and pay attention to what he has to say!
As I understand it, Andy was the #1 guy in the pecking order, Sternbach was #2 guy, and Okuda was a distant #3. But after Andy left, I cannot understand how Okuda became the #1 guy, creating all the LCARS and renaming them "Okudagrams" or "Okudagraphs", which to my way of thinking is extreme narcissism and most egocentric! I had also heard, and I would like to get Andy's take on this "rumor" that several people complained about Andy Probert, that he was "Too difficult to work with" and that two of these complainers were, actually, both Sternbach and Okuda! Any truth to that, Andy?