BigJake, you left off this part at the end!
Game of Thrones 4.4 - "Oathkeeper" - Rate and discuss
- Thread starter Out Of My Vulcan Mind
- Start date
Maybe we can explain it by saying his accent is a bit screwy in-universe too. Littlefinger is all about social climbing, right? From the most minor tier of Vale nobility, to the Small Council and nominal lordship of Harrenhal. Maybe he's been faking a "well spoken southern" voice to fit in with the high-status lords. Less so right now when it doesn't really matter, aboard his ship. What we hear as irish is a rural Vale accent.
You can see the dialog here: http://www.nerdist.com/2014/04/lets-talk-about-that-cerseijaime-scene-from-game-of-thrones/
The time of consent is difficult to determine. It seems like she wanted to, but also kept pushing him away until he was actually inside her, wherein it was clear that she wanted it. It's like Out of My Vulcan Mind said, where it could be seen as a case of no means yes, regardless of when the consent is actually given.
By your original definition of "Just because the objection is location rather than person doesn't make it any less rape, and it's dangerous to consider it otherwise" it is rape. You then moved the goalposts to be "the important distinction is NOT what the objection is, the important distinction is if and when consent occurs" where the situation is a bit more questionable.
Well, let's not forget that this is fiction, and in reality a rape doesn't stop being a rape just because she eventually goes along with it (at the point where she doesn't really have a choice.)
There's a lot of problematic material in Martin's books, but stuff like this that essentially fuels rape apologism is especially pernicious.
There's a lot of problematic material in Martin's books, but stuff like this that essentially fuels rape apologism is especially pernicious.
Yeah, I guess. It's a little like how I believe Oliver Stone used Irish and English accents to distinguish different neighbouring countries in Alexander (haven't seen it so I can't remember who was what). But I'm just baffled at why Gillen's accent doesn't sound at all like he's actually from Ireland! It really grates on the ears to me.
Whether the scene in the book was a rape (I didn't think it was in the context of the world the story takes place in) doesn't really matter, because the interpretation of the scene in the show was radically different and much, much more aggressive and hateful, especially since the show has given us less context into the dynamics of Jaime and Cersei's relationship than the books did.
Perhaps you should provide an in-context citation for that.
http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=9027856&postcount=99
Ah, I knew it was going to be something batty. This was the discussion in which you tried to prove that climate change will be a net benefit for humanity--a view that was and is a fringe position not backed by data, but perhaps true only to the extent it will benefit northern latitudes and to hell with everyone else. You kept providing more and more links that you claimed proved your point when they didn't, and I got tired of your dishonesty. Your own links touting the benefits even admitted a low level of confidence and plenty of variables they couldn't fully account for. It was basically somewhat informed speculation rather than solid quantitative modeling.
So - you got tired of pointing out my "misinterpretations" of peer-reviewed papers and, instead, called for 'discussions' in the forum, because these are so much more rigorous and harder to misrepresent? This is your excuse, RM? Really?
You may want to read that thread and jog your memory: I supported my lukewarming position with papers you failed to debunk/counter/etc - until you requested content more easily for you to counter. At the beginning of that discussion, you also had the problem of not reading my posts before answering.
Of course, you are also able to modify that thread, being a moderator. Should I save copies from that page for future reference, RM? Do tell.
Then it should be no problem for you to find studies from reputable (as in not obviously biased) sources, yes, RM?
Do provide the 'citations'.
You may even come with just articles, this being, after all, a 'discussion forum'.
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Look, your papers didn't say what you said they did. In fact, you seem to have a habit of posting links which you claim support you when they don't. I'm sure I could just link article after article claiming they support me, too. The difference is, mine actually would.
If you want to be dishonest, that's your problem, but don't expect people not to call you out on it.
Don't be shy. If you want to accuse me of abusing my moderation powers, come out and say so.
If you'd like to see an unbiased source, perhaps you should start by providing one yourself? BigJake was kind enough to point out the tremendous flaws in the link you posted.
Of course, you didn't respond to him, because you seem to be more interested in scoring points against me than actually discussing it. Is it because my name is green? I'm not used to all this attention.
Ookie-dookie.
Look, your papers didn't say what you said they did. In fact, you seem to have a habit of posting links which you claim support you when they don't. I'm sure I could just link article after article claiming they support me, too. The difference is, mine actually would.
If you want to be dishonest, that's your problem, but don't expect people not to call you out on it.
To anyone who's interested - feel free to go and read that discussion. I posted the link to it.
BJ posted something of substance? Well - I'll check his post/s and get back to you.If you'd like to see an unbiased source, perhaps you should start by providing one yourself? BigJake was kind enough to point out the tremendous flaws in the link you posted.
Of course, you didn't respond to him, because you seem to be more interested in scoring points against me than actually discussing it. Is it because my name is green? I'm not used to all this attention.
As for you - apparently, other than banter, you have nothing to substantiate your claims with.
The scene with Cersi was rape. She clearly said, "no,in the dialogue despite giving Jamie mixed signals earlier in the same scene. Anyone that thinks that in certain circumstances, "no means yes," has a problem and should re-examine their views on appropriate and inappropriate sexual behaviors.
IMO - the show is overusing rape for its shock value. In this episode where he says, "...fuck em' till they die," in the group rape scene really was unnecessary to get the point that they are evil. Again - oversue of rape IMO to make a larger point.
Real life:
It's disturbing that the director doesn't understand that when a woman says NO to sex even in mixed message circumstances that is indeed rape.
To the poster that tried to make some odd point about rapes being exaggerated on college campuses obviously doesn't understand that, many, many rapes - especially date rape situations - go unreported
So his nonsensical article about mass crime waves on college campuses fundamentally ignores the point that many women - especially young women in college - are either afraid to report a rape and/or don't think people will believe it happened.
I'd also imagine that many college rape situations occur when there is heavy consumption of alcohol - and to any man who thinks it OK to have sex with an extremely drunk person who isn't completely making a cognoscente decision - should think twice about what they are doing.
No, actually. I was getting sick of coming to the thread and only finding you two sniping.
Agreed. We get it - this is premium cable where you *can* show this stuff. That doesn't mean you need to grab every opportunity to do so.
I'm not familiar with the director but I've wondered if this all wasn't a really clumsy editing job of a scene that was supposed to illustrate how complicated the Jamie/Cersie (sp?) relationship is. What I think may have been supposed to have been portrayed, and I think the scene in the book bears this out, is 'forceful persuasion' or 'reluctant consent' where the usually less dominant partner (Jaimie) took control of the situation for that moment.
I've probably stated that clumsily but to an extent, that scene reminded me of how things used to be when I was growing up (I'm 59). Basically, back then, the woman was *expected* to protest to a certain extent lest she be thought 'easy'. Yeah, I know it's pretty sick and not at all anything resembling an adult relationship but that's just how things were. Everybody knew it and it's been taking decades for that attitude to start wearing off.
Jan
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I think we all suspect at this point that this translates to "I'll avoid that post and quietly slink away after a bit of further bluster," since you seem unable to face facts about the credibility deficit you've inflicted on yourself. But you play it any way you need to.
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Some people love to try to get Mods to make mistakes or have something they can use on them Robert_Maxwell. Mods are the "big fish" in the troll community, if they can snag one, then it's lulz for everyone!
As for GoT use of Rape, I find it rather distasteful. Rape is not "edgy" or "boundary pushing" it is wrong, and using it continually and casually is really, really inappropriate. Having a twin brother rape his twin sister next to the corpse of their incestuous child really turned my stomach. The fact that the showrunners have turned consensual sex into rape on at least two occasions disturbs me greatly.
As for GoT use of Rape, I find it rather distasteful. Rape is not "edgy" or "boundary pushing" it is wrong, and using it continually and casually is really, really inappropriate. Having a twin brother rape his twin sister next to the corpse of their incestuous child really turned my stomach. The fact that the showrunners have turned consensual sex into rape on at least two occasions disturbs me greatly.
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Yeah, especially in a setting clearly based in a brutal medieval time period where it was a simple fact of life, just like war, torture, assassination, and other equally unspeakable acts of human nature. How dare they show that one particular act, though. I mean, honestly. <scoffs>
Grow some balls and get the fuck over it. Rape happens, especially in a setting like this and especially in some of the greatest works of classical fiction. Deal with it and move on.
If it weren't for the series makers coming out and saying they hadn't intended it to be a rape scene, I would have just taken it as an indicator of how messed up and toxic their relationship is and a reminder to those that have started to like Jamie that he's not an entirely nice person. Just ask Bran.
Since they have admitted it was unintentional, I'm at a bit of a loss to explain it. You'd think the director would have viewed the final edit and noticed it if that's where the mistake happened. On the other hand, one can get so involved in a project as to loose perspective.
On balance, perhaps it would have served them better not to have spoken up in this instance.
I doubt this is the case, but maybe that's the kind of thing they had in mind. As in because this is a quasi-Medieval setting with some appropriately archaic attitudes that Cersei would feel obliged to give a token protestation just out of cultural conditioning. As distasteful as it may sound, the implication there would be that Jamie knows when this particular woman is saying "YES-no" as opposed to "NO-no".
If that's the line they were trying to walk it's no wonder they fell off it and face-planted the concrete. To a modern audience, appreciating the distinction would be onerous to say the least.