Last Classic Who Story you watched

[Timewalker]

What is it with this "Aztecs in South America" crap? One of the Fifth Doctor stories made that mistake, as well.

The Aztecs lived in Mexico. It was the Incas who were in South America.

 

[Captaindemotion]

^Isn't Mexico considered to be in South America?

 

[Timewalker]

Mexico is part of Central America. South America is everything south of Panama down to Tierra del Fuego.

 

[NightJim]

Honestly, blame it on the British. Sorry. I think the impression we're given (or at least I have so to not cast all my countrymen in the same ignorant hole) is that the tribes of Native Americans (aka the Sioux, Cherokee etc) were North America, and the ones the Spanish messed with were South.

Mexico just never occurred to me in the case of what was there before the Europeans turned up. I guess my head just jumped to the conclusion that it was South America.

 

[sidious618]

Mexico is in North America, although anything below the US is usually referred to as Central America even though Central America isn't an actual continent.

 

[Captaindemotion]

Mexico is part of Central America. South America is everything south of Panama down to Tierra del Fuego.

Mexico is in North America, although anything below the US is usually referred to as Central America even though Central America isn't an actual continent.

See, we're all describing it differently. I've always thought of North America being Canada and the USA and of South America being everything south of the US. I suppose yeah, thinking about it, it's really Central America. But people often refer to the south of Ireland to distinguish it from Northern Ireland and end up including (in the SOI) county Donegal, which contains Ireland's most northerly part.

I suspect, though can't be sure, that saying 'North America' or 'South America' with no reference to Central America, may be something people tend to do on this side of the Atlantic, hence the DW writers using that term.

 

[Timewalker]

Mexico is part of Central America. South America is everything south of Panama down to Tierra del Fuego.

Mexico is in North America, although anything below the US is usually referred to as Central America even though Central America isn't an actual continent.

See, we're all describing it differently. I've always thought of North America being Canada and the USA and of South America being everything south of the US. I suppose yeah, thinking about it, it's really Central America. But people often refer to the south of Ireland to distinguish it from Northern Ireland and end up including (in the SOI) county Donegal, which contains Ireland's most northerly part.

I suspect, though can't be sure, that saying 'North America' or 'South America' with no reference to Central America, may be something people tend to do on this side of the Atlantic, hence the DW writers using that term.

Here's some clarification, then. In the geopolitical sense, North America includes Canada, the U.S., Mexico, all the other "Central American" countries between Mexico and Panama (including Panama, of course), plus Greenland and other assorted islands, and the Caribbean islands. Yes, I know Greenland is controlled by Denmark, but there's a little island between there and Canada that our two countries have been arguing about for quite some time. There are a couple of little islands south of Newfoundland - St. Pierre and Miquelon - that belong to France. Oh, and Canada (and the Canadian SCA kingdom of An Tir) claims the North Pole - and therefore Santa Claus.

From a cultural, linguistic, and anthropological perspective, Mexico and the lands between there and Panama are considered to be "Central America" - aka MesoAmerica - and are not part of South America.

The Aztecs never lived in South America. The Incas did, as well as the many thousands of indigenous peoples of the Amazon and farther south. This is why it really annoys me every time Doctor Who comes out with this "Aztecs in South America" stuff. It's like the writers never bothered to look at an atlas of the Western Hemisphere, or even do basic research.

 

[Captaindemotion]

^ Thanks. I guess I've just rather lazily been equating 'South America' with 'Latin America.'

 

[Sindatur]

^ Thanks. I guess I've just rather lazily been equating 'South America' with 'Latin America.'

It's a common mistake here in the States as well. Especially Americans think of USA as North America, so, anything below The States, must be South America

 

[Captaindemotion]

^Whew, so it's not just me!

 

[kirk55555]

Images of Fendahl was reall dull. I couldn't get all the way through it (after about an episode and a half of boredom). Looking on wikipedia, it was written by Chris Boucher, who also wrote the last Doctor Who serial I couldn't get through, The Robots of Death. So, he's two for three with serials (he also write the decent The Face of Evil) but luckily this seems to be the last Doctor who story he wrote. This serial had a boring set up, some lame attempts at horror, and a very lackluster cast of side characters. Next up for the Fouth Doctor will be Underworld.

Before that, though, I've decided to take a quick break and watch the 2nd Doctor serial The Abominable Snowmen. Its a 6 episode serial with 5 episodes missing, but the reconstruction of the first episode was ok, and I'm going to watch it all. I'm two episodes in (episode 2 is the only complete episode left) and its an entertaining story. The Yeti look stupid, but in a fun, goofy kind of way. The Doctor is as entertaining as ever. Every time I've seen the 2nd Doctor I always want to see more of him.

 

[diankra]

Next 4th Doctor story should be The Sunmakers, which was made before Fendahl but run after: it's a Robert Holmes script, the last he wrote in his time as script editor (which might be why it was run after Fendahl, as it made it easier to pretend he wasn't double-jobbing, which was banned outside of emergencies: which is why there were six Holmes-written scripts which were either officially emergencies, or credited to pseudonymous writers over the previous few years. Alternatively, they maybe wanted to run the 'ghost story' Fendahl at Halloween).

Fendahl was Boucher's last story because he became script editor on Blake's 7 (after Robert Holmes turned it down, as he he'd just done four years on Who, and suggested his protogee instead), and the head of department told him he couldn't work on both (a half-written script for the next season was abandoned as a result, though bits of it may have later turned up as one of Boucher's Who novels. As he told me 20 years ago, he can't remember what was in it, but was fairly sure that it probably leaked out into some later idea). Holmes and Boucher tended to swap jobs like this for the next 10 years, across Shoestring and Bergerac and others (if Holmes hadn't died in 86, I bet he'd have written for Star Cops).

Personally... I didn't like Fendahl at the time (age 10), but love it as an adult (so a total inversion of Invisible Enemy). That seems to be a common reaction from people who first saw it as a kid.

But whatever else we might disagree on, I'm with you 110%on Troughton's Doctor. So good you wonder why he doesn't scare anyone else from taking on the role. "I can never match that." (watching some of his slapstick bits. "Phew... Ok, so he's not always brilliant, just sometimes funny. I can do funny.")

 

[kirk55555]

Next 4th Doctor story should be The Sunmakers, which was made before Fendahl but run after: it's a Robert Holmes script, the last he wrote in his time as script editor (which might be why it was run after Fendahl, as it made it easier to pretend he wasn't double-jobbing, which was banned outside of emergencies: which is why there were six Holmes-written scripts which were either officially emergencies, or credited to pseudonymous writers over the previous few years. Alternatively, they maybe wanted to run the 'ghost story' Fendahl at Halloween).

I meant The Sunmakers, I don't know why I said Underworld was next. I guess I just wasn't paying much attention.

But whatever else we might disagree on, I'm with you 110%on Troughton's Doctor. So good you wonder why he doesn't scare anyone else from taking on the role. "I can never match that." (watching some of his slapstick bits. "Phew... Ok, so he's not always brilliant, just sometimes funny. I can do funny.")

Yeah, I think the 2nd Doctor could easily be one of my favorites, and I do plan to eventually watch more of his stuff. Maybe after season 15 I'll give the fourth doctor a bit of a break and get into more 2nd Doctor stuff.

 

[starsuperion]

Well I have to agree with you guys there.. However, in the context of the racism being from that time and turn of the century, would it be safe to say that it could be a commentary on the ideals and types of attitudes prevalent in that setting?? Could it be that Going for realism back then (1970s), was acceptable, whereas nowadays it would be frowned upon or with the sensitivity that is rampant these days, would it have been more prudent to have depicted that racism from the past as they did with the 10TH Doctor and what Martha jones suffered from in the Family of Blood episodes? They did their best to show racism in that episode, without being very blatant about it..which I suppose is what has to happen these days, seeing as how almost everyone is looking to play the victim, or there are just those types of people out there who are ALWAYS looking for a racist comment, and or phrase, or even "code words." I submit, if that is what one is constantly looking for, then they will always find it.

present company excluded of course.

I get what you mean...but no, it wasn't commentary. The BBC/Doctor who people was either unwilling, or somehow too cheap, to hire an asian actor to play the main asian villain. Instead, they dressed up a white guy in obvious yellow face. Most of the story doesn't even talk about racism, from a story perspective it doesn't seem to be a theme. If they had the exact same script but with an actual asian actor, Li H'Sen Chang's role wouldn't be something people would automatically point to and call racist, its the casting of the white guy in yellow face that's racist. Other stuff might be borderline, but with one casting change I think it would generally be considered a story you wouldn't need to put an asterix next to if you were listing it on a "Best of Doctor Who" list.

As for newer Doctor Who, its hard to comment. I HATE Human nature/Family of Blood, its one of my most hated Doctor Who stories, and probably the worst newer Doctor Who story. I couldn't get through a lot of it, but I guess I vaguely remember Martha being treated badly, which I suppose would be more of a commentary (I mostly just remember the story infuriating me from basically the second it started more than specifics like what Martha was doing). But, for The Talons of Weng-Chiang, the racism comes mostly from the casting, which based off the writing I'd say was not the intention of the author, or something planned. They just made a really, really bad decision.

Just curious how do feel about Khan in Space Seed. A White Spanish man playing an Indian in Brown Face? If you're supportive of it, how is that any different (Though yes, there's 10 years between the two)

I totally forgot about Weng Chiang being a white guy made to look Asian.. I suppose that seems to be a norm in some cases, and goes to the actor.. I think that Khan, was a valid point out there.. except I thought Khan Noonian Sing was suppose to be Middle eastern, and not Indian, tho I could be wrong.. However, there was a white man playing a Native American in the recent Lone Ranger flick, and the White kid playing Ang in the live action movie of the last air bender.. I for one don't care what race is used when it comes to fantasy..but if you are trying to be historical, then casting should be correct.. tho I would not raise it to calling it racism, as I believe true racism involves demeaning another race, to harm them, and bone headed casting, with an actor trying to be Asian, I don't feel quite rises to that level..

If we use that standard, then white americans playing eastern Europeans, Russians, Baltics, or even middle eastern men, would also have to be considered racist..because the case could be made their shoddy accent and portrayal is offensive, or mocking..which I just don't truly see..sometimes it comes to cost, and who is available.. especially on a show that is on such a budget back then and time constraints..

 

[starsuperion]

On a separate issue..

Just saw the Androids of TARA, I loved that flick! It was great fun! Just wish the Androids looked more advanced.. but oh well. It was a smooth show, and very fun. It really shows why K-9 should come back in the series, but more advanced..

 

[kirk55555]

The Abominable Snowmen was a good story. Sure, it only has one complete episode, but I enjoyed story overall, even if most of it was told with reconstructions. I liked how the guy I thought would turn out to be your average battle hungry warrior didn't turn out the way I thought he would. I also liked how the monks mostly didn't treat the Doctor the way so many groups do, with instant paranoia and hostility. They treated The Doctor and the companions fairly well, except for a bit early on. The Great Intelligence was a decently interesting villain, especially since i've seen it's plans in newer Doctor Who. The Yeti, like I said before, were goofy in a good way. The Doctor and Jamie were good, although victoria was a bit annoying at times (although not unbearably so). Overall, this is a story I like, and really wish I could see it complete.

I'm two episodes into the 4th Doctor serial Underworld, and its pretty good so far. Its interesting to learn about a species that the Timelords screwed up with, its like a Starfleet Prime Directive situation.

Also, as I was typing this, I literally just remembered that I screwed up, and skipped The Sun Makers, just like when I posted what Doctor Who serial was next So, after Underworld will be The Sun Makers, assuming I don't screw up and skip to something else.

Speaking of 4th Doctor serials, I've been really hoping that The Master shows up again eventually. He was around in his freaky corpse form in The Deadly Assassin, but he hasn't been seen since. I looked it up and apparently he doesn't return until the second to last 4th Doctor serial. But, when he does show up he apparently becomes the form I saw fighting the 5th Doctor (The 5 Doctors), and 6th Doctor (The mark of the Rani, Trial of a Timelord), which is cool. I liked Anthony Ainley's Master in the few stories I've seen him in. I can't call him my favorite Master because I haven't seen Roger Delgado yet, but I look forward to seeing Ainley show up eventually, and I hope he's in more 5th Doctor stories than just The Five Doctors.

 

[Timewalker]

On a separate issue..

Just saw the Androids of TARA, I loved that flick! It was great fun! Just wish the Androids looked more advanced.. but oh well. It was a smooth show, and very fun. It really shows why K-9 should come back in the series, but more advanced..

I used to have a hat similar to the one Romana wore in that story. Somebody who is now a former friend borrowed it permanently.

Speaking of 4th Doctor serials, I've been really hoping that The Master shows up again eventually. He was around in his freaky corpse form in The Deadly Assassin, but he hasn't been seen since. I looked it up and apparently he doesn't return until the second to last 4th Doctor serial. But, when he does show up he apparently becomes the form I saw fighting the 5th Doctor (The 5 Doctors), and 6th Doctor (The mark of the Rani, Trial of a Timelord), which is cool. I liked Anthony Ainley's Master in the few stories I've seen him in. I can't call him my favorite Master because I haven't seen Roger Delgado yet, but I look forward to seeing Ainley show up eventually, and I hope he's in more 5th Doctor stories than just The Five Doctors.

Anthony Ainley's Master shows up in The Keeper of Traken and Logopolis (Fourth Doctor) and Castrovalva, Time-Flight, The King's Demons, The Five Doctors, and Planet of Fire (Fifth Doctor).

In verifying the above list, I found out that Anthony Ainley died 10 years ago. I hadn't known that.

 

[Sindatur]

Ainley's Master also shows up in the last McCoy story, which you skipped Survival. Delgado's Master is in 8 of Pertwee's stories

 

[kirk55555]

Ainley's Master also shows up in the last McCoy story, which you skipped Survival. Delgado's Master is in 8 of Pertwee's stories

Yeah, the fact that Ainley's Master is in Survival has made me reconsider watching it. But, while I like Ainley, I despise the 7th Doctor (who is basically just The Master himself, but with a lower body count and a slightly better ability to hide his evil). Plus, the story sounded pretty stupid. But, I might watch it. I do like Ainley's Master, and the 7th did have one or two good serials, so maybe Survival could be one of the rare instances where the story makes the 7th tolerable. When I got to it in my 7th Doctor viewing, I was just fed up with the 7th. After some time away, I can probably handle watching the serial now.

As for delgado, I'll definitely get to him. I just haven't gotten that far in my 3rd Doctor watching yet. Inferno is the next 3rd Doctor story I need to watch, and then I think The Master shows up in the serial after that, Terror of the Autons.

 

[Sindatur]

Yea, Delgado Master is in all of Series 8 (5 straight Serials), 2 of the 5 Serials in Series 9 , and then one Serial in Series 10. After that, we don't see The Master until he shows up crispy in Series 14 The Deadly Assassin