But you aren't really declaring obedience if you're lying, are you?
Picard in Chain of Command
- Thread starter Reeborg
- Start date
If you're too apparently lying, Madred pushes the button. If you're really sincere, Madred pushes the button to be sure you're and then, pushes the button for another matter.
I didn't think the point of the episode was to show it was ineffective. The ending reveals that despite Picard's defiance it was working on him. But the question of the episode is what is the cost of doing so, as Picard tells him it will have an effect on him too.
it's not effective at getting reliable info, but of course it's effective at breaking someone's will. Eventually just about anyone would give in to it, which is precisely why it's useless as an information gathering tool. It's a tool for power and control, nit info.
But that's where it always fails - exactly because the victim will submit. In the end, he will tell the torturer anything to get the torture to end: the truth, a lie, a thousand lies. And the torturer will have no way to discern which is which.
It would be impossible with an "amateur" victim, and doubly so with a trained soldier. Madred asks Picard for a fact (say, a code, a deployment pattern, a name). Picard says A, then B, then C, then A again, alternately sounding sincere, alternately derisive and defiant. A few hours into the process, Picard is saying H, then I, then J, then K, then I again - he is completely broken now, and will say anything to stop the torture. Truth is I, but Madred doesn't know to stop there, so Picard is forced to keep on lying to get Madred to stop. Soon thereafter, Picard tries with I, I, I, I. But Madred cannot trust Picard there, because he must know Picard would try anything at that point. Indeed, moments later, Picard switches to K, K, K, K. And then to A, B, C again. He readily explains his thought processes to Madred, he honestly explains why he was lying, why he was telling the truth, why he was lying again. But Madred cannot trust him to tell the truth there, either. Eventually, Madred will have to pick a truth he likes the best, at which point Picard will gladly admit that it's a very good truth. Even if Madred picks F.
Madred would have been much better off just guessing, and then slipping the fact into a conversation with Picard over a cup of nice tea and observing his reactions.
Timo Saloniemi
It would be impossible with an "amateur" victim, and doubly so with a trained soldier. Madred asks Picard for a fact (say, a code, a deployment pattern, a name). Picard says A, then B, then C, then A again, alternately sounding sincere, alternately derisive and defiant. A few hours into the process, Picard is saying H, then I, then J, then K, then I again - he is completely broken now, and will say anything to stop the torture. Truth is I, but Madred doesn't know to stop there, so Picard is forced to keep on lying to get Madred to stop. Soon thereafter, Picard tries with I, I, I, I. But Madred cannot trust Picard there, because he must know Picard would try anything at that point. Indeed, moments later, Picard switches to K, K, K, K. And then to A, B, C again. He readily explains his thought processes to Madred, he honestly explains why he was lying, why he was telling the truth, why he was lying again. But Madred cannot trust him to tell the truth there, either. Eventually, Madred will have to pick a truth he likes the best, at which point Picard will gladly admit that it's a very good truth. Even if Madred picks F.
Madred would have been much better off just guessing, and then slipping the fact into a conversation with Picard over a cup of nice tea and observing his reactions.
Timo Saloniemi
Any intelligence agency should know the application of torturing for information
We've never been given reason to believe that Picard has been trained to withhold information under duress of torture, or the level of mind manipulation to withhold it under the influence of mind altering drugs, like the ones they 1st gave him. He gave them all the info he had while he was drugged, & they asked about the battle plans & got nowhere
The ultimate point of the episode is that even giving that Picard's will was broken & in the end he would have told them anything[/I] to make it stop, he would not have told them what they needed to know, because it's pretty clear that Starfleet was smart enough to not give him that information. He would have been telling them anything to make it stop, not The thing they were looking for
End result: Fail
That's why torture is not useful. There's ways to prevent it being used to extract your vital information
We've never been given reason to believe that Picard has been trained to withhold information under duress of torture, or the level of mind manipulation to withhold it under the influence of mind altering drugs, like the ones they 1st gave him. He gave them all the info he had while he was drugged, & they asked about the battle plans & got nowhere
The ultimate point of the episode is that even giving that Picard's will was broken & in the end he would have told them anything[/I] to make it stop, he would not have told them what they needed to know, because it's pretty clear that Starfleet was smart enough to not give him that information. He would have been telling them anything to make it stop, not The thing they were looking for
End result: Fail
That's why torture is not useful. There's ways to prevent it being used to extract your vital information
popcultureevil
Lieutenant
What is normal? What is rational?
Picard probably didn't care. He was ready to face the consequences, which figures since he was a pretty ballsy person. People are different...
I agree with you as well.
popcultureevil
Lieutenant
lol.. how isn't torture unreliable? People would say anything to remove the pain. Even if it's lies, depends on how easy it is for the torturing party to discover the lie.
As I see the scenario, it was just basic psychology on Picard's part. He was simply getting back at Madred, and showing to him he cannot and wouldn't defeat him. yes, it would mean more pain, but then Picard probably didn't care. Sounds odd, well..IMO it's not. We all take decisions of gain if the consequences are not pleasing. The thing, as has been said, Picard was right. Madred only tortured people because his negative childhood experiences had soured his worldview/personality. I guess in the final scene of the ep, Picard should have said "and one more thing, Counsellor, I'm contacting Starfleet to suggest if they can contact the Cardassian Central Command. Gul Madred may need your services." lol.. As said, basic psychology on Picard's part.
I'd also agree that Madred knew Picard was genuine in not knowing how the Federation would defend Minos Korva. After he admitted Picard was telling the truth, it was just sadism after this. And frankly Madred deserved his insult IMO. He falsely told Picard that Worf had been killed in the attack, and he wanted Beverly (per his words, the human female) in the chamber. If Madred can manipulate Picard emotionally/psychologically, as he knows human men (even in the 24th century) show chivalrous attitudes towards women, then Picard can tell the truth based on intuition on Madred's motivation for being a torturer. And as he tortured innocent strangers from other worlds/species, then he really was pitiable.
As I see the scenario, it was just basic psychology on Picard's part. He was simply getting back at Madred, and showing to him he cannot and wouldn't defeat him. yes, it would mean more pain, but then Picard probably didn't care. Sounds odd, well..IMO it's not. We all take decisions of gain if the consequences are not pleasing. The thing, as has been said, Picard was right. Madred only tortured people because his negative childhood experiences had soured his worldview/personality. I guess in the final scene of the ep, Picard should have said "and one more thing, Counsellor, I'm contacting Starfleet to suggest if they can contact the Cardassian Central Command. Gul Madred may need your services." lol.. As said, basic psychology on Picard's part.
I'd also agree that Madred knew Picard was genuine in not knowing how the Federation would defend Minos Korva. After he admitted Picard was telling the truth, it was just sadism after this. And frankly Madred deserved his insult IMO. He falsely told Picard that Worf had been killed in the attack, and he wanted Beverly (per his words, the human female) in the chamber. If Madred can manipulate Picard emotionally/psychologically, as he knows human men (even in the 24th century) show chivalrous attitudes towards women, then Picard can tell the truth based on intuition on Madred's motivation for being a torturer. And as he tortured innocent strangers from other worlds/species, then he really was pitiable.
At the end Picard isn't just randomly saying things though. He doesn't say he was about to lie about there being five lights - he says that he actually believed it. He may not have had the ability to lie anymore.
I don't see enough in the episode to say that Madred would be unable to discern the truth. He may have had methods. Picard was rescued before we could see what would happen after that point.
I think the message of the episode is that torture is wrong and damaging but not necessarily that it's ineffective, that seems like wishful thinking. Although I think it's ineffective in reality but not in this particular episode. I think it's a stronger message to say that it's morally wrong than tactically wrong.
Also I'm gonna side with Riker against Jellico
The man takes the joy out of the enterprise
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Riker's behavior didn't really make much sense in the first place, he's never been disobedient or (borderline) childish before.
Most likely his character was derailed to create conflict with Jellico.
Though to be fair, it's kind of strange that instead of just giving Riker command of the situation they brought in Jellico. I mean, did EVERYONE forget Riker saved Earth from the Borg in BOBW?!
Most likely his character was derailed to create conflict with Jellico.
Though to be fair, it's kind of strange that instead of just giving Riker command of the situation they brought in Jellico. I mean, did EVERYONE forget Riker saved Earth from the Borg in BOBW?!
I agree, but then I think that opens the door too much toward having Riker keep the Enterprise and kicking Picard upstairs to Admiral. Even without a promotion, the trauma he suffered would certainly justify a reassignment to a post where he could recover, leaving Riker in command.
Jumping thhreads a bit there was a suggestion that William Riker could have been promoted to Captain of another ship after BOBW and then have Tom Riker brought in an as a new character. It would have rattled the cage quite a bit, but if Tom Riker had been the character, it would have still made sense for Jellico to come to Tom to ask him to make the final run.
Anyway, Picard had the upper hand and when he showed Madred that he was on to him,all Madred could do was kill him or totally just break him and leave him a drooling imbecile. A torturer could never admit defeat in a situation like that.
Anyway, Picard had the upper hand and when he showed Madred that he was on to him,all Madred could do was kill him or totally just break him and leave him a drooling imbecile. A torturer could never admit defeat in a situation like that.
It is if Picard doesn't know what they need, and gets broken to a point where he "would've told him anything" despite the fact. He'd show all the signs of a broken man, and spill his guts, but if he doesn't' t know the vital info, which it appears he doesn't, then they are fooling themselves, with whatever he tells them
Geordi speaks as those their tactic is an assumption that Picard knows the info, and Picard admits that while he was under their drugs he answered all their questions truthfully, which it appears he did, as he gave up Worf & Beverly's names and his current mission on Celtris 3. He wouldn't do that of sound mind
Picard doesn't know the defense plans for Minos Korva, despite the fact that his ship would be the command ship for that sector. Starfleet is smart enough to know to not put out info that can be beaten out of some unlucky captain. That is one of many reasons torture can be ineffective
I find the portrayal of Picard in that (second half) episode widely unrealistic. Is he really so arrogant to insult his captor under torture? "I see you now only as a six years old boy without defense" and other bold statements.
How do you feel about that? Do you think you would behave like this (sitting in Guantanamo)?
What I'm about to say is not intended as a slight or an insult or a troll comment. I intend it purely as an observation.
Reeborg, you give me the impression that you're a member of some military force who believes that people should take orders without question, and you sound like you would be offended if someone ever defied you while you were exercising power over them. How dare they defy you. You're hurting them, after all. That means you deserve to have them obey your every command and they should be thanking you for not killing them because you have power over them.
That's what your argument about Gul Madred and Picard boils down to.
I think that part of the reason they brought in Jellico was to create another dramatic strand in the episode. For Picard, not only is he in this terrible situation but back home his ship and crew are also turning to shit. Meanwhile on board the Enterprise not only have they lost their captain in terrible cirumstances they are faced with more crap. I think that if Riker had been promoted the episode would have lost some of its edge - well, at least all is well on the Enterprise and they will run in to save the captain in the nick of time.
I think the writers mis-stepped with the Riker-Jelico headbutting. I suspect the audience was meant to feel that the Enterprise crew had been landed with a task master and feel sorry for them labouring in poor circumstances and when will they get Picard back to save them. Riker's role was meant to be to try to be protecting the crew from the taskmaster captain. Instead it came off as Riker looking like an idiot because the audience was mature enough to understand that Jellico wasn't an idiot and had his reasons for doing what he did.
Just my 2 cents, anyway, on this perennial subject!
I find the portrayal of Picard in that (second half) episode widely unrealistic. Is he really so arrogant to insult his captor under torture? "I see you now only as a six years old boy without defense" and other bold statements.
How do you feel about that? Do you think you would behave like this (sitting in Guantanamo
What I'm about to say is not intended as a slight or an insult or a troll comment. I intend it purely as an observation.
Reeborg, you give me the impression that you're a member of some military force who believes that people should take orders without question, and you sound like you would be offended if someone ever defied you while you were exercising power over them. How dare they defy you. You're hurting them, after all. That means you deserve to have them obey your every command and they should be thanking you for not killing them because you have power over them.
That's what your argument about Gul Madred and Picard boils down to.
The question is if you'd find it rational and probable that an US army officer held and tortured in Afghanistan by Talibans would start insulting his captors openly. Sorry, but it doesn't seem rational (nor likely) behavior to me.
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