I think there may have been an earlier thread discussing the rank of Fleet Captain in Starfleet, but after watching "Whom Gods Destroy" tonight, I have a comment about the rank. In this episode, Kirk more than once refers to Garth as a Starship Fleet Captain, not a Starfleet Fleet Captain. That would seem to suggest that Fleet Captain may not be a flag rank, but perhaps a rank or title given to a senior starship captain who has performed particularly well. Any thoughts?
Starship Fleet Captain
- Thread starter WisTrekFan
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I always got the impression that Garth had been the senior officer in that rank.
I always imagined that--with Starfleet being slightly different than today's navy--there were just different captain grades, with fleet captain being junior to a commodore. I like to think that the insignia for a fleet captain during TOS was three solid stripes.
It is too bad we never actually saw a fleet captain in uniform. That does make sense that there could have been different grades of captain.
I see no pressing reason to think Garth held any special rank distinct from Kirk's. Kirk and Spock just wanted to remind this lunatic that he had been a Captain in the prestigious starship fleet, not some silly old skipper of rusting corvettes defending Backwater III. The closed brotherhood was introduced in "Court Martial", and all three of the usages in this episode are specifically about reminding Garth of his real position and responsibilities.
Garth is also called starship Captain and plain Captain in the episode. Three forms of address, no difference.
That said, I would like to think that Chris Pike eventually wore three solid stripes. And perhaps Garth did, too. But his rank would not have been "Starship Fleet Captain", it would have been starship fleet Captain.
Timo Saloniemi
Garth is also called starship Captain and plain Captain in the episode. Three forms of address, no difference.
That said, I would like to think that Chris Pike eventually wore three solid stripes. And perhaps Garth did, too. But his rank would not have been "Starship Fleet Captain", it would have been starship fleet Captain.
Timo Saloniemi
I've long felt that fleet captain was less an official rank & more an unofficial title to designate a senior captain, much as commodore is presently used in the USN. However, it could be that there is in fact a rank of fleet captain & it's set up such as how the Soviets & then Russians had three captain grades (CPT 3rd Rank, 2nd Rank, & 1st Rank). True, those are their terms for what we call lieutenant commander, commander, & captain but that does not have to be so.
Consider how easily Picard was able to take overall command of both the tachyon detection fleet & the anti-Borg Earth defense fleet. Perhaps it was not simply notoriety or command orders, but a fact of rank; he may "correctly" be Fleet Captain Picard, & due to not being a pompous ass, does not insist on usage of the full title. Sisko might have been "promoted" to this titile/position/rank as well, given that it seemed that he & NOT Bill Ross was in overall command of the Operation Return fleet; even if he was only heading the primary segment of it, that's still a superior position. This also fits in with the Wiki article, which states that "an admiral's flagship might have a 'captain of the fleet', who would be ranked between the admiral and the ship's captain (or 'flag captain')" & who "would be listed as the ship's 'first captain' and would serve as the admiral's chief-of staff."
So assuming that this is not an inclusion from, say, the Imperial Guard or the Tellarite Defense Forces, clearly there's a historical human precedent for such a position.
Consider how easily Picard was able to take overall command of both the tachyon detection fleet & the anti-Borg Earth defense fleet. Perhaps it was not simply notoriety or command orders, but a fact of rank; he may "correctly" be Fleet Captain Picard, & due to not being a pompous ass, does not insist on usage of the full title. Sisko might have been "promoted" to this titile/position/rank as well, given that it seemed that he & NOT Bill Ross was in overall command of the Operation Return fleet; even if he was only heading the primary segment of it, that's still a superior position. This also fits in with the Wiki article, which states that "an admiral's flagship might have a 'captain of the fleet', who would be ranked between the admiral and the ship's captain (or 'flag captain')" & who "would be listed as the ship's 'first captain' and would serve as the admiral's chief-of staff."
So assuming that this is not an inclusion from, say, the Imperial Guard or the Tellarite Defense Forces, clearly there's a historical human precedent for such a position.
Perhaps similar to how a Lieutenant Colonel can be properly referred to simply as "Colonel."
I figure that Fleet Captain is another way of saying "Senior Captain." An entirely separate rank immediately above that of Captain.
I don't think Fleet Captain was a separate rank. It's just an honorific, nothing more. IIRC, the TOS writers took awhile before deciding on a straight-up Navy-style rank system; this is just an example of that.
I would agree except for the line that says Pike "was promoted to fleet captain." People tend to use that phrasing for promotions to substantive grades. In the US Navy example, people wouldn't say someone was "promoted to commodore," since they are actually a captain. They would say "appointed a commodore," "assigned as commodore" etc.
There doesn't have to be a separate grade for that, though. Officers of the same rank are either senior or junior to each other, there are no ties. Picard could have taken that command on the basis of his seniority as a captain alone.
There are generally standards of protocol for that kind of thing, and everyone of the same position is treated the same and subordinates don't have to worry about finding out a superior's personal preference. If Picard's full title was fleet captain, one would expect it to have come up at least once.
Agreed, at least that seems to have been the intent. Why Starfleet would need that grade is open for speculation, especially if it's between captain and commodore, as we saw a commodore function essentially the same as a captain.
The grades of captain, lieutenant commander and lieutenant were established within the first two episodes produced, so it seems like they were leaning toward a naval rank system very early on. Commodore, ensign and a junior grade of lieutenant had been established by the time "fleet captain" was used.
Perhaps a Fleet Captain simply *is* a Commodore, just an alternate name for the rank. (Kind of like how the US Navy used to use Commodore, but now calls it Rear Admiral Lower Half.)
There would be some practical demand for calling Starfleet skippers of Captain rank "Fleet Captains" to separate them from civilian Captains, I guess.
It's just that in the one and only episode that mentions Fleet Captains ("The Menagerie"), the situation does not call for such separation. Nobody would mistake Pike for a civilian Captain, or think that Kirk would have been present in a ceremony where Pike was promoted to Captain yet not to Starfleet Captain.
Timo Saloniemi
It's just that in the one and only episode that mentions Fleet Captains ("The Menagerie"), the situation does not call for such separation. Nobody would mistake Pike for a civilian Captain, or think that Kirk would have been present in a ceremony where Pike was promoted to Captain yet not to Starfleet Captain.
Timo Saloniemi
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