Game of Thrones 4.2 - "The Lion and the Rose" - Rate and discuss

[FPAlpha]

Yeah it was definitely a bit unsatisfying on that level. After everything he had done, you really wanted to see Joffrey suffer and die horribly at the hands of someone he had wronged.

But I also really respect the way Martin did it here. Especially when you consider just how crazy and insane the fallout from such an act will be. It just opens up so many more storytelling possibilities than if things had just continued the way they were. So in that way I think it was a pretty inspired move.

Since when did Martin write something according to expectations? He killed off one of the freakin' main characters in the first book which lead to a war

It's one of the things i really love about A Song of Ice and Fire.. the good side doesn't win always, sometimes evil lasts longer than we would like and sometimes things just fizzle out without any justice done.. just as in real life. We have been conditioned all our life that good always has to win in stories because they are our escape from the harsh reality where we know that it's not always the case.

Martin deliberately plays with this trope and it's what makes this story so fascinating.. even the villains are very interesting and not one note, two dimensional characters so when they finally meet justice it's all the more satisfying (and oh boy did i want to see that little shithead die! ).

There was no action on this episode, no big battles or even big special effects.. just pure character interaction and i was glued to the screen staring in disbelief at the unfolding drama during the wedding and before even though i knew what the outcome would be. Now i'm curious to see how they portray poor Tyrion and if they reveal who is responsible for the death of Joffrey.

I could watch such episodes all day without the need to draw a single sword or have a dragon take to the sky.

Btw.. how awesome was the meeting between Oberyn and Tywin? Diplomacy and hatred all together in one short meeting.. awesome!

 

[Captain Shaw]

We where talking today at work about wanting to see Joffrey get what's coming to him.
Such a shame some wanker online spoiled it for me just before I put the ep on.
I do hope his Brother is saner than Joffrey in fact what is his brothers name?

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Tommen's the little brother.

 

[Forbin]

I think Maggie Simpson did it!



Well, no one would suspect her, right?

 

[Tom]

I have not read the books but since the next is line is Tommen, he is way to young, so does that mean Tywin as the King's hand will take the throne in the interim?

 

[Brendan Moody]

I have not read the books but since the next is line is Tommen, he is way to young, so does that mean Tywin as the King's hand will take the throne in the interim?

Without getting into spoiler territory, and just talking in terms of the typical customs in this world... Tommen can take the throne in the technical sense even though he's underage, just as Joffrey did. But as was the case with Joffrey, someone else would almost certainly serve as regent, holding power on his behalf until he came of age. For Joffrey, that was Cersei. For Tommen, well, we'll have to keep watching.

Ratings are in: 6.3 million viewers, down slightly from the premiere as is usually the case. With the latest PR burst, there may be a chance of breaking 7 million by season's end.

 

[Ryan8bit]

It's one of the things i really love about A Song of Ice and Fire.. the good side doesn't win always, sometimes evil lasts longer than we would like and sometimes things just fizzle out without any justice done.. just as in real life. We have been conditioned all our life that good always has to win in stories because they are our escape from the harsh reality where we know that it's not always the case.

I dunno, I guess in a show where there's dragons, white walkers, magic, and just generally fantastic events, I don't hope for things to be that realistic. It's still just meant to entertain, and if you create a huge buildup and then don't pay off, it's understandable that some might not know how to feel about it.

I agree with davejames though in that the aftermath of such a death has so many possibilities. It's certainly interesting, just not what one would expect. I think that's a good thing in some ways.

 

[Lonemagpie]

....And suddenly Westeros is a much happier place! Though TBH as far as I'm concerned the view down Cersei's front was the main set-piece tonight...

 

[Captaindemotion]

Well, this episode was always going to be a great one unless they really dropped the ball and fortunately GRRM and director Graves proved a safe pair of hands. So many great moments, from Jamie and Bronn training (though it's sad that Wilkie Johnson can't portray Ser Ilyn due to illness, as per the books), to the Oberyn/Twyin face-off, to The Queen of Thorns dismissing her son, to Sansa's impassive yet tortured face at the mockery of the King in the North.

Oh and yes, the small matter of a certain king getting a long-awaited come-uppance. They played that scene out brilliantly, maximising his hatefulness and letting book readers sit and think "now he's gonna start choking, no, it'll be now, actually here it comes..." And not forgetting the Christie-esque suggestion that anyone could've done it.

The dreadfort scenes do seem to have jumped ahead again so far as the books were concerned. I still don't like what they've done with Ramsay but they're handling Theon/Reek well and the sub-plot of having the Bolton men hunting down the surviving Stark boys is interesting. Curiously, I thought that Theon seemed to have the full set of fingers when shaving Ramsay (though the gloves seemed to be hiding missing ones earlier), yet he limped like he had missing toes.

 

[DevilEyes]

The dreadfort scenes do seem to have jumped ahead again so far as the books were concerned. I still don't like what they've done with Ramsay but they're handling Theon/Reek well and the sub-plot of having the Bolton men hunting down the surviving Stark boys is interesting. Curiously, I thought that Theon seemed to have the full set of fingers when shaving Ramsay (though the gloves seemed to be hiding missing ones earlier), yet he limped like he had missing toes.

Well, they don't need to use CGI for his toes, unless he goes barefoot. It would be a bit more difficult to pretend that he's missing fingers.

I have not read the books but since the next is line is Tommen, he is way to young, so does that mean Tywin as the King's hand will take the throne in the interim?

The Hand of the King is the Hand of the King. The monarch is the monarch, and if underage, will rule with a regent. The two don't mesh. It's kind of like the Prime Minister and the Head of State (President/Monarch) in a parliamentary democracy. Or First Vizier and Sultan in the Ottoman Empire.

So far, we had king Robert and king Joffrey with Cersei as the regent, and Jon Arryn, Ned Stark and Tywin Lannister as Hands of the King (and Tyrion as acting Hand of the King in Tywin's absence).

 

[Skellington]

I haven't grinned that much in a long while. Great episode, finely crafted and with a wonderful finish.

 

[Lonemagpie]

Is it wrong of me that I’d love to see the various fictional detectives and cops turn up in King’s Landing this week and see who they thought did it?

 

[publiusr]

I think that would be brilliant.

Imagine Columbo: "Pardon me Cersei..."
Chan would get executed as a spy, and Holmes and Poirot would look the other way...

I do love Joffrey, easily in my Top 3 characters. I don't get why people say they hate him on the show;

At first, I was all ready to pump my fist in the air--but so help me, I actually felt sorry for him at the end. He's really just Charlie X after all, right?

And his end to me was the worst death depicted yet--and the worst poisoning I think I've ever seen on screen.

If somehow Drogo could come back and simply snap his spine, that would be merciful.

The scenes at the Dreadfort were very good, which is a promising improvement from last season. I liked that Locke and Ramsay are buddies and fellow torture enthusiasts..

Joffrey was soft compared to that lot.

 

[Klaus]

The scenes at the Dreadfort were very good, which is a promising improvement from last season. I liked that Locke and Ramsay are buddies and fellow torture enthusiasts..

Joffrey was soft compared to that lot.

Tell that to Roz...

 

[Guy Gardener]

You want me to dig up a year old corpse, and yell shit at her rotting skull, that she already knows?

Wow.

That's just new levels of fucked up.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

I'm definitely going to be on guard if there are any more weddings.

 

[Klaus]

You want me to dig up a year old corpse, and yell shit at her rotting skull, that she already knows?

Wow.

That's just new levels of fucked up.

...this place works as a kind of inkblot test sometimes.

"Alas poor Roz, I knew her well. A lass of infinite flexibility."

 

[chrisspringob]

I haven't read the books, and don't know any spoilers as such, but I have looked at the episode titles for the rest of the season, and the Roose/Locke scheming at the Dreadfort gave me an idea for a possible double meaning of a future episode title:

Spoiler: future episode title

Episode 4x07 is titled "Mockingbird", which I guess is Littlefinger's sigil. But if Locke is going to infiltrate the Night's Watch or something, which I guess was the implication of that conversation about Jon Snow, then he'd be impersonating a crow….just like a mockingbird.

 

[The Lensman]

As a long-time book reader, that's pretty much how I feel about the show. I'm absolutely thrilled that it exists, so that the wonderful story and characters can reach a wider audience, but it'll never have the same depth and detail that the books do.

At one time I planned to read the books when the series had ended. But I've seen too many people, who while liking the books, have complained about the latter books containing way too much filler and padding. And there have been plenty of comments regarding the Tolkien level of detail (and that's not a compliment) regarding clothing and tables of food. It took me years to get through Fellowship Of The Ring because at one point during an early trip through the woods, it felt like Tolkien was describing every single tree.

These folks have complimented the show for cutting out a lot of useless fat and streamlining the story with better pacing.

It's one of the things i really love about A Song of Ice and Fire.. the good side doesn't win always, sometimes evil lasts longer than we would like and sometimes things just fizzle out without any justice done.. just as in real life. We have been conditioned all our life that good always has to win in stories because they are our escape from the harsh reality where we know that it's not always the case.

Martin deliberately plays with this trope and it's what makes this story so fascinating.

I'd probably find that a refreshing story element if I hadn't read the Elric series years before watching Game Of Thrones. By comparison, GoT is a cheery story full of rainbows and unicorns. If the antagonists of an Elric story weren't killing his closest friends, Elric was killing his closest friends. Or his sword was.

The fool or the Dornishman would be the simplest answer.

The simplest answer for me is Margery Tyrell. I figured Joffery would die the first time she rode with him through the city and stopped at the poor house. She made all the efforts to be magnanimous to the masses in order to gain support, if not love. She made enough effort to try to stop Joffery from doing evil things, but was always deferential if he proved willful....which seems like what she wanted.

The people love her and hate Joffery. It seems like they tolerate Joffery because of her kindness to them. Even if suspicion falls on her, the regular people will still find her kindness preferential to that of Joffery's evil. In short, she played them. It reminds of this exchange from Asimov's "Foundation":

Hardin: “Do you realize, your highness, that an attack on the Foundation is nothing short of sacrilege of the highest order?”
Wienis: “Give me none of that, Hardin. Save it for the mob.”
Hardin: “My dear Wienis, whoever do you think I am saving it for?

She played to the masses and they'll support her. Of course I could be wrong....and book readers, no spoilers!

 

[CaptainCanada]

These folks have complimented the show for cutting out a lot of useless fat and streamlining the story with better pacing.

I completely disagree with those people. The books are superior to the show in pretty much every respect. The fourth and fifth books meander, but they're still good.