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Starship of the Federation President

I point out previously that city councils elect their own presidents.

Some do. Others have the position of municipal council president be popularly elected along with the other municipal councillors. Just depends on the municipality.

A larger scale precedent of how the Federation Council would elect Jaresh-Inyo as their presiding officer would be the example of President of the Continental Congress, he was the presiding officer of the Continental Congress, a member of Congress elected by the other delegates to serve as the moderator during meetings of Congress.

(Imagine that, the President being elected by the members of the body he presided over)

The Continental Congress met from 1774 to 1789, first with the representatives of the thirteen colonies, later representatives of the thirteen separate nations.

Fourteen men served as the President of Congress.

Yes, but being the presiding officer of a legislature is a very different thing from being the executive of an entire sovereign state.

It is not impossible that the Federation President is elected by the Council, but you don't usually hear the term "run for" used in the contexts of such offices. "Run for" carries connotations of making campaign stops to raise one's support among the general population.

It is, however, possible that the elections are like those of the Republic of South Africa, in which it is understood that the legislature will not elect as head of government a candidate who is not supported by a majority of the populace.

ETA: There is, however, no canonical reference whatsoever to the Federation President being elected by the Council, only to him being "democratically elected." I find it highly implausible to imagine they meant indirectly elected. There is also no canonical evidence that the Federation President routinely serves as the presiding officer of the Federation Council, though he seemed to be doing so in the exceptional circumstances that constituted Kirk's court-martial in TVH.

The novels have firmly established the Federation President to be popularly elected, and that the Federation President does routinely serve as the Council's presiding officer. End edit.

Of course, as the Republic of South Africa proves, having a legislatively-elected head of state and head of government does not mean that it's an alliance rather than a sovereign state. :)
 
From 1775 through 1785 there existed the Continental Navy, this military force was collectively possessed by the (then) thirteen separate countries that formed the united States of America.

Multiple nations, joined in an alliance, with a single Navy.

To carry this ball further... During this time period and after, the US Constitution was crafted to limit the concept of a standing army. The government could not, constitutionally, form a standing army for longer than two years and was not able to appropriate money for army use. The idea of a standing army was a source of constitutional debate.

And there are sovereign states today that do not maintain a standing army -- the Republic of Costa Rica, for instance. This doesn't mean that possession of a military is not a trait of statehood.



Well, that was the intent behind the Articles of Confederation. But it's important to remember that the "Founding Fathers" were not a politically united group with a common agenda. Some wanted the newly-independent states to be a single sovereign state; some others even wanted to sunder the Articles and have them be completely independent, with no alliance whatsoever.



Yes -- because they discovered that trying to give state-like authorities to an alliance ultimately doesn't work. Either the alliance will evolve into a sovereign state -- which is what happened to the American Confederation with the adoption of the Constitution -- or it will collapse.



Revisionist nonsense. Those same southern states, when they had control of the federal government, were perfectly willing to come down hard on the side of federal power instead of states rights when it was a case of free states trying to resist enforcing the Fugitive Slave Act, or to grant freedom to slaves who stepped foot in free state soil. The armed raids Southern slavers led into free state territory puts lie to the notion that they actually believed in states' rights.

And those same state leaders, upon seceding from the Union, literally issued declarations of the causes of secession, explicitly saying that they seceded from the union because of their belief that the new Lincoln administration was a threat to the institution of slavery. Hell, the Confederate States Vice President gave a big speech about how white supremacy and black slavery were the cornerstones of Confederate society.

The South did not secede because of "states' rights." It seceded because its governments were controlled by slave lords who profited from the forced labor of a third of the South's population.



No, it proves that there was a civil war going on and that some state governments tried to avoid taking a side.



1718? I hope you mean 1778.

And, no, nobody served as President of the United States between 1778 and 1787. Those men were serving as President of the United States in Congress Assembled. "The United States in Congress Assembled" being the full formal name of the Congress under the Articles of Confederation.

In other words -- these men were serving as Presidents of the Congress. They were the Congress's presiding officers, the equivalent of our modern Speaker of the House or President Pro Tempore of the Senate. They were not the Presidents of the United States of America, and they were not the heads of state or government. No such office exist; they were just the presiding officers of the legislature.

Jefferson Davis was the first and only president of the Confederate States of America established in 1861. The CSA constitution, modeled after the US Constitution, allowed for a president to be elected by popular vote.
Don't be absurd. Jefferson Davis wasn't elected by popular vote, because one-third of the Confederacy's population (the one-third held in chains) was not allowed to vote.

(ETA #2: And that is to say nothing of the fact that fully half of both the Confederate States's and the United States's populations were not allowed to vote, being women. Neither government was an actual democracy in the 1860s; both were explicitly built on an anti-democratic patriarchy, and the Confederate States was explicitly built on an anti-democratic white supremacy. End edit #2.)

If you're looking for an example of a President who serves as both head of state and head of government but who is elected by the legislature rather than by popular vote, your best bet would be to look at the post-Apartheid Republic of South Africa. The President of the Republic of South Africa, starting with Nelson Mandela, definitely serves as both head of state and head of government, but is elected by the National Assembly, the lower house of the Parliament. However, in citing South Africa's example, it is important to understand that this is a historical anomaly arising from the modern presidency having evolved out of the office of prime minister during the Apartheid era.

Which brings me back to an earlier point the EU might be a better example to use. It started out as a trade alliance before becomming more of a political alliance. The questions is will it become a Federation of States?

I think the European Union is a good example in cultural terms, but not in political terms. Partially this is because I think the E.U. is going through a protracted crisis as a result of it and its peoples not being willing to decide if it should be a sovereign state or a mere alliance. They have delegated to it some of the powers of a sovereign state and undermined their own nations' sovereignties in the process -- and this has led to a huge democratic deficit. To wit:

Greece being unable to meet its debts by devaluing its currency and just biting the bullet and printing more money before then building its economy back up, because they don't have control of their own monetary policy. This has resulted in the regional hegemon, Germany, being able to essentially dictate policy to the Greek government if they want to continue to have access to E.U. loans -- violating the democratic will of the Greek people and forcing the Greek government to essentially make policy with a German gun to its head.

So you have an institution with very little democratic input in its own constitutional arrangements, dictating policy in violation of the democratic will of one of its constituent polities, when that constituent polity has nominally not surrendered its sovereignty. It's a anti-democratic nightmare.

This whole problem could have been avoided if the E.U. were either clearly an alliance to whom sovereign powers had not been delegated -- allowing Greece to devalue its currency and start paying off its debts -- or if the E.U. were clearly its own sovereign state with its own democratic legislature and executive -- giving Greece and other E.U. polities in similar situations access to the full resources of the E.U. the same way Mississippi has access to the full resources of the United States.

So, no, I don't think the E.U. has it currently stands is a good model. Not only are the most powerful E.U. institutions themselves unelected, but the E.U. is essentially acting right now to subvert the democratic process in its member states. It's become a tool of German hegemony rather than an embodiment of European unity.

(ETA: I hasten to add that I am not "anti-Europe" per se. Rather, I am anti-current E.U. arrangement. I would tend to prefer to see the E.U. evolve into its own sovereign, democratic, federal state, with its own elected Parliament, its own elected President, its own elected Prime Minister, its own Supreme Court, its own Constitution, its own military, etc.)


But with Greece being a member of the eurozone countries it has no currecny of it's own to devalue. And possibly one of the reasons for the economic crisis in the Eurozone is that monetary union really needs full political union, harmonisation of pay rates etc...

The EU has many issues one of which is perhaps a disconnect between the politicans and the electorate, simply put the EU hasn't done a very good job of selling itself. The EU also has it's own elected Parliament with elections for it this year.

I think saying that the EU has become a tool of German Hegemony is going to far, sure Germany has a large influence within in the EU and is the largest economy within the EU, but France has influence as well. The UK does have some influence as well but perhaps not as much as it could have perhaps in part to the perception which is not unfounded that the UK is one of the more Eurosceptic countires. But that isn't always a bad thing in a democracy were opponents of a policy or polices have their say. I don't think many countries within the EU want the UK to withdraw from it, so if the question is if the UK's more eurosceptical viewpoint is such a thorn in their side why do that want the UK to remain within it, would it not be better for them for them if the UK left? Or does the UK bring something to the table? Also eurosceptisim is not found just within the EU other nations have segments of their population that are eurosceptical. And in recent years several times when EU treaties have been put before a national populance i.e France they have been rejected. What does that say?

I'm not anti-EU but I would rather see what we orignally signed up for which was a free-trade zone. If the nation states of the EU want to move towards a United Federation of Europe or whatever they want to call it. There is one simply way to end the debate. Simply hold national referrudums in each of the EU country with a question like

Should the EU become a Federation? or similar.

Let the electorate decide the direction they want to go. I might not agree with everything a party stands for when I cast my vote for them, just that on balance I agree with them on more things than others. If an election/vote goes against my own viewpoint well that's demoracy at work. I also don't support withdrawl from the EU but I think it needs reform.


In the case of the UK anyone born after around 1963 ( thats two gernerations) has never had a diirect vote on any EU treaty. That's not good for democracy

But as I said I don't want to turn this thread into a debate on the EU.
 
All life is sacred.
Debatable.

All life must be protected.
All innocent life yes, all life again debatable.

All human beings must be given due process at all times.
Not alway a option in real life.

The simple fact is, nobody deserves to be killed - not ever.
If someone is attacking you? Your family, your nation, your allies?

When circumstance don't allow them to be "subdued," then what?

:)
 
In other words -- these men were serving as Presidents of the Congress. They were the Congress's presiding officers, the equivalent of our modern Speaker of the House or President Pro Tempore of the Senate.
Yes.

They were not the Presidents of the United States of America
I certainly never said they were, however if the 18th century Congress choose (for whatever reason) to grant them that particular "job title" I sure them could have.

If they wanted to official call him the grand poobah they could have.

and they were not the heads of state or government. No such office exist; they were just the presiding officer of the legislature.
Yes.

Jaresh-Inyo would be the Federation Council's presiding officer, and he might (or might not) be considered the Federation's governing body's head of government.

He wouldn't be the head of state since of course the Federation isn't a "state."

As the Council's presiding officer he apparently does carries the title of "president of the united federation of planets" (how charming). He might also be considered "the chief of the (whatever) party," presiding officers automatically being the head of their ideological party within the Council.

It would be easy to see him being referred to as "the chief executive of the Federation Council" given his senior managerial responsibilities.


:)
 
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The simple fact is, nobody deserves to be killed - not ever.
If someone is attacking you? Your family, your nation, your allies?

When circumstance don't allow them to be "subdued," then what?

:)

Sometimes it may be necessary to kill, yes. Self-defense is a right. But I'd prefer not to kill if I don't have to. And it doesn't mean the other person deserves to die - it means I deserve to live. There is a difference.
 
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I mean, come on, as unpopular as some Presidents have been lately, nobody with any shred of human decency should ever want them to be assassinated. That's barbaric and inhuman.
How so? They are directly responsible for thousands of deaths - surely their own life has no real moral basis for being more sacrosanct than that of their victims.

That does not follow.

All life is sacred. All life must be protected. All human beings must be given due process at all times. The simple fact is, nobody deserves to be killed - not ever.

How can you say that when Justin Beiber is still around?
 
The question is would they need a dedicated starship? Or would they just use which ever starfleet vessel happened to be available?

Surely it would be easier just to use which ever vessel was available.

I agree. However, it seems that the Enterprise (now the Sovereign-class Enterprise-E) is often considered the flagship of the Federation, both symbolically and often actually.

Earlier, though, I think Starfleet Command had envisioned the Excelsior-class ship would be the diplomatic ship of choice, so one of this class would probably have been the UFP President's flagship.

But, with the retirement of most Excelsior-class ships, that question is open for discussion.

What about a Prometheus-class ship?
 
I agree. However, it seems that the Enterprise (now the Sovereign-class Enterprise-E) is often considered the flagship of the Federation, both symbolically and often actually.
I don't believe the E-E was ever actually (or even "considered") the Flagship of the Federation.

:)
 
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Edit: Nevermind. My suggestion was already mentioned back in post #7, and its creator is involved in the conversation. :blush:
 
There's also the idea - and I know this is going to seem like an archaic and barbaric notion to some of you, but even so - that there are some circumstances under which you WANT the president to be vulnerable to a degree.

JFK even wanted accessibility. Having the bubble top down seems mad today, but it was a calculated risk, and I might have done the same thing. You can't stay in that car all day, anyway.

A Secret Service success story--what with Squeaky Fromme--to me was far worse. They jerked Gerald Ford back like a little three-year old child. You do not want your Commander-In-Chief to look like that. Putin would have slapped the gun out of her hand.
 
there are some circumstances under which you WANT the president to be vulnerable to a degree.
One of the problems with a leader possessing heavy security might be the psychological effect of that level of protect on the leader themselves.

The security can place the leader in a bubble of isolation and fear. Everywhere he goes outside of the armored buildings where he lives and works, he is surrounded by armed personnel, move from place to place in armored transports.

The result could be the leader growing scared of the people he serves.

It might also engender in the leader a dangerous false perception that they are personally special, more important, and even better than those those whom they work for and are employed by.

The office they hold is special, personally they are not.

:)
 
^ There is the risk of that, yes. But even in our own real world, it doesn't change the fact that there are some really sick people out there who want to kill anyone in positions of leadership or power. These must be accounted for and dealt with.

Sometimes, security may be overly cautious, and it may indeed have some effect on those it's protecting. But that doesn't change the fact that it is still needed.

Or, to put it another way: The danger of having too much security is much less than the danger of not having enough of it.
 
Oh, I very much doubt that. Security, after all, is violence, and increasing it doesn't really make the world a safer place.

The great thing about democracies is that the President or the Prime Minister isn't important, not really. A democracy can afford to lose him or her; indeed, the very idea behind that form of government is that "the people" get to fire him or her if unsatisfied with the work. If it is made more difficult to get rid of the Boss, then the urge to do so will only escalate, and so will the means.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Oh, I very much doubt that. Security, after all, is violence, and increasing it doesn't really make the world a safer place.

Security isn't violence; it's the lack of it. Chaos is violence.

The great thing about democracies is that the President or the Prime Minister isn't important, not really. A democracy can afford to lose him or her; indeed, the very idea behind that form of government is that "the people" get to fire him or her if unsatisfied with the work. If it is made more difficult to get rid of the Boss, then the urge to do so will only escalate, and so will the means.

You get rid of a president or prime minister by having these things called ELECTIONS. :rolleyes:
 
Security isn't violence; it's the lack of it. Chaos is violence.

Bullshit. You get security by applying violence or threatening with it; there isn't an alternate approach. Except perhaps bribery, but that never works for long.

You get rid of a president or prime minister by having these things called ELECTIONS. :rolleyes:

Which just goes to show that he or she isn't important enough to warrant a private army for clinging to power. Clinging to life is fine and well, but it's important for the difference to be very visible...

Timo Saloniemi
 
Security isn't violence; it's the lack of it. Chaos is violence.

Bullshit. You get security by applying violence or threatening with it

Perhaps. But in the end, security is a response to violence. If humans weren't such a brutal and violent species, there'd be no need for security forces of any kind.

Order won't spontaneously arise. It must be maintained. The opposite of order is chaos.

You get rid of a president or prime minister by having these things called ELECTIONS. :rolleyes:

Which just goes to show that he or she isn't important enough to warrant a private army for clinging to power.

The Secret Service is not a "private army." A few plainclothes security officers do not an army make.
 
Order won't spontaneously arise. It must be maintained. The opposite of order is chaos.

And too much order is tyranny. Both ends mean excesses in violence, so the middle is to be sought.

A few plainclothes security officers do not an army make.

...But a Galaxy class starship for the UFP President is plenty enough to meet the criterion.

I wonder whether the UFP President really has Men in Black around him or her? It would be a rather nifty alternative to simply have him or her wear a forcefield belt, somewhat more potent than the TAS ones that couldn't stop phasers; random rioters couldn't touch the Prez, but the protection wouldn't be excessive or call for escalation. Essentially, it would be an invisible armored limo, a soft tool for good PR and adequate protection. (MIB to catch the fool who nevertheless takes a shot at the Prez would be optional. Regular law enforcement ought to be up to the task in the Trek environment...)

Timo Saloniemi
 
The great thing about democracies is that the President or the Prime Minister isn't important, not really.
As I understand it the leader of Iceland (president, PM, whatever) has no security and lives in a medium sized house in a nice neighborhood. The General Secretary of the UN only occasionally has a moderate size security detail. The Federation President is probably more like the General Secretary of the UN and less the President of a large country.

If the President isn't the "embodiment of the Federation" and is instead simply the current and very temporary leader of the governing body, then killing or wounding him wouldn't be seen as much of a profound act or political statement. He wouldn't really be in all that much danger, because he is little more than a faceless bureaucrat.

Many of the peoples of the Member Worlds might not even know who he is. How many people in Europe could name the current head of the EU without looking it up? Or the UN?

Why kill him?

You get rid of a president or prime minister by having these things called ELECTIONS.
Occasional running them out of town, covered in tar and feathers, could only be a good thing for a free society.

:)
 
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