Re: Probert's REAL N.C.C.-1701-C
^^ I concur. One TOS Enterprise had travelled back in time but was never seen by the other still orbiting Psi 2000.
The TNG-timeline was never in danger, since the events around the E-C had already happened.
That's what the Novikov self-consistency principle states,
but what the producers of "Yesterday's Enterprise" apparently opted for instead was this:
The YE-universe is created at the moment the E-C falls trough time, and that's were the TNG-universe and the YE-timeline interact.
The question, where magic gets involved, is
who (Q?) or what created the YE-universe and gave the protagonists a different memory of 20 years past? I addressed the issue (and the first dialogue plotholes for
blssdwlf) in
this part of the original thread / treatise.
"This time line will cease to exist and a new future will have been created. I've considered the alternatives. I'll go with Guinan's recommendation."
(Michael Piller: "Picard sends a hundred people into their deaths upon the word of a bartender. Come On."
Another plothole, according to Michael Piller, for blssdwlf)
I'm not following. The beginning of YE shows the Sternbach-E affecting the timeline and also used to restore the timeline. There isn't any room for another conjectural universe to be involved.
There is after “Redemption II”, but you and some others simply won’t acknowledge that possibility. And from a strictly in-universe point of view, the only thing suggesting it’s just a changed timeline (and not a parallel universe) are the “universe at war” protagonists of the alternate reality. Heck, already the crew of our
Enterprise-D (a ship of exploration) was unable to define the properties of the “temporal rift” but the crew of the Battleship
Enterprise-D (a ship of war) has all the answers?
The only thing they could verify beyond a doubt was that the Sternbach-C was the “immediate predecessor” to the Battleship “D” within their alternate reality.
The conference lounge sculptures? Uhm, the movie Enterprise warp nacelle pylons are conspicuously further back and on top of the shuttle bay. The Enterprise-B looks like a stock Excelsior instead of what she looked like in "Generations". And shouldn't there be 2 movie Enterprise/A models? And why is there an aircraft carrier and no space shuttle? And what about those Enterprises that were on display in the TMP lounge?
First, I think you’re violating your own Thermian principles. I’m not aware that we have a good onscreen shot of the movie Enterprise with the odd warp pylons. This is a behind-the-scenes production picture I provided, but since you admittedly ignore that kind of information, you shouldn’t make use of it, now.
Second, I’ve already addressed the issue
first thing in the original thread / treatise and think I provided a reasonable explanation. I can’t see what’s possibly wrong or inaccurate about the sculpture display other than a warp pylon being misaligned while the basic proportions of the ships’ components on display are correct. Instead of splitting hairs we are now splitting warp pylons?
If there were nothing left of the E-C then the Klingons would have no proof that they died defending Narendra. If they had debris from the E-C and it was not the one native to that universe that'd raise a red flag when the Klingons examined the debris and ask, "Hey, this isn't the Enterprise-C!" and again, we'd have a different history. In other words, to avoid a plothole then the E-C that disappeared and reappeared must be the same and native to that universe.
In that case that would be the Probert-C and the sculpture display on the “E” is just a presentation of an evolution lineage of a Starfleet design with its more popular representatives.
But seriously, we don’t have sufficient information of what actually happened at Narendra III in 2344 in the various realities. Did the
Enterprise-C save the outpost from destruction (“other” Picard’s speculation) or didn’t she (“other” Riker)? Did she just distract the Romulans long enough to enable the escape of one or some Klingon survivors to tell the story that a Federation starship came to their rescue? Did the
Enterprise-C from “Yesterday’s Enterprise” collide head-on with a Romulan warbird
(DATA: There is a high degree of probability that the temporal rift is symmetrical, Captain.)? Did the re-appearance of another Enterprise-C make the Romulans believe they were dealing with several “cloaked” Federation starships and therefore decided to break off the attack? Did the returning Enterprise-C suffer a warp core breach vaporizing the ship (and leaving no trace?)?
Why did the Romulans take captives? Where they interested to gain strategic information on that starship design? Where they interested to learn about the disappearance effect? Where they interested to learn about a possible new Federation cloaking device?
Like I said, being probably deprived of their long-range scanning equipment the Klingons might just have had audio and no visual confirmation what the re-appearing
Enterprise-C might have looked like (it only stands to reason that the Romulans knew). The only thing we can know from “Yesterday’s Enterprise” is that the
Enterprise-C was “last seen near Narendra III” (and apparently before the Romulan attack on the outpost).
At the risk of being dragged back into this silly topic, I must point out that the entire basis of Mr. Comsol's speculation (and that's what it is; speculation) is the conference lounge sculpture of the Enterprise-C, which is the only time that even a hint of the original Probert-inspired design was ever shown on screen. The inherent problem with this speculation however, is that absolutely no attention has been paid on his part to how completely inaccurate the other sculptures on that display are.
No one dragged you back. Yes, it’s the conference lounge sculpture of Andrew Probert’s
Enterprise-C, nicely visible in almost all conference lounge scenes of the first four TNG seasons and fleshed out by the artist as a painting (see my avatar) which some members of “my” generation back in 1988 had therefore come to accept as the real thing and part of an unseen story.
And before I have the audacity to declare his design as “fanwank” or “apocrypha” I feel it’s necessary to examine all the facts / give his design the benefit of a doubt to be certain beyond a shred of doubt that Rick Sternbach’s
Enterprise-C actually did “erase” or “overwrite” it.
If “Yesterday’s Enterprise” was really just a changed timeline of “our” universe, I would have to agree, but with the apparent relocation of these events into a “parallel universe” (and by the same screenplay writer and director of “Yesterday’s Enterprise” for several good reasons I’ve already presented), we are looking at quite a different outcome, i.e. multiple configurations of multiple
Enterprises-C in multiple universes.
Contrary to your claims, in both threads I have now abundantly addressed the presentation of the golden ships on the conference lounge wall of the
Enterprise-D. But however rough, raw, simple or crude these may be (“
starships named
Enterprise and their
equivalent in previous centuries”), their proportions allow a quick and easy distinction – however, the
Enterprise-C on display is obviously not the one featured in “Yesterday’s Enterprise”.
But that [Probert] variant is certainly not the Enterprise-C, as we saw the correct design in YE and I'm not swayed by any speculation that it wasn't supposed to be the real McCoy, so to speak.
Everyone is entitled to assume or believe whatever he or she thinks works best.
I admit that my original treatise was speculation, but already the plotholes and prop oddities of “Yesterday’s Enterprise”, not to forget the possibility that we were looking at a stage created by Q to put Guinan between a rock and a hard place for what she did to him two episodes earlier (!), suggested that we
might be looking at parallel events in a parallel universe.
I think it’s fair to say that neither Ronald Moore or David Carson cared about starship designs as we do, obviously.
What mattered to them (and rightly so) were the characters and apparently the only solution to have Tasha keep her meaningful death in the aftermath of “Yesterday’s Enterprise” was to relocate its events into a “parallel universe” (Carson) so that another Tasha (from another parallel universe) could be captured, give birth to Sela but finally die a meaningless death being executed because of a failed escape attempt.
This conclusion can be deducted from the statements of Moore, Carson, Guinan and Sela and constitutes a different “canon” than the one previously assumed, regardless whether you like it or not. You can choose to ignore it, but please give me a break making absolute statements like “there is only one correct Enterprise-C” or “there is only one canon Enterprise-C” (which was the reason why I started the original thread / treatise, BTW).
Bob
)
And what's up with the connecting dorsal of the TOS Enterprise? 
A useless piece of crap and garbage and Comsol is the only one who believes he can still tell the various starships apart from each other. 
