The Pegasus

[Clark Terrell]

Just watched "the Pegasus" (spelling?) for the first time in 20 years. I was bothered by Picard's decision to inform the Romulans of the cloaking technology - is it really the place of a Starship Captain to decide whether or not his superiors have made a sound/moral/correct decision in violating a treaty and developing a new technology?

It is if said superiors have broken the law and precipitated an incident that could lead to interstellar war. Picard did exactly what he was supposed to in that situation. It's not his fault that Pressman (and others at Starfleet) orchestrated a conspiracy to smuggle illegal technology back to Federation space, but he would have been to blame had he allowed them to get away with it.

I haven't seen the episode in ages, but I have to agree with Komack. It may have been illegal, but that's something that should have been sorted out internally. Unless it was to defuse an escalating situation (which may have been the case, I don't remember), then Picard shouldn't have taken it upon himself to expose matters of Federation/Starfleet policy/security to a rival power.

I don't see that he did. He ordered a message sent to the Romulans that their government would be contacted about the incident, but nothing else was revealed to them onscreen.

I suppose it's possible that the treaty stipulated that such potential situations must be reported immediately by the commanding officer(s) present on the scene.

Makes sense to me and explains why Picard took the actions he did.

 

[PhoenixClass]

In your hypothetical, the primary purpose of the device is to be used as a a weapon. In my cases, they're neither weapons (although they may have weapons applications, which are not covered under the treaty per se) nor defenses of any kind in their primary uses.

True, a cloak is not itself a weapon - yet the treaty still bans it. Weaponization is not the key factor; capability is.

Your lawyer in my hypothetical would argue that the flashlight gun is primarily a flashlight, at least until it is used primarily as a gun. So if secondary/primary purpose is the test, how do you determine which is which?

 

[Clark Terrell]

Your lawyer in my hypothetical would argue that the flashlight gun is primarily a flashlight, at least until it is used primarily as a gun. So if secondary/primary purpose is the test, how do you determine which is which?

This is where establishing the user's intent would be important. Just about anything can have potential as a weapon if its user's disposition is one of aggression and hostility.

 

[GalaxyX]

I don't think anyone mentioned this, but why not just have Picard and the Enterprise pretend that they are helpless inside and ask the Romulans to set them free?

Then deny any questions about any phase/cloak technology once out, and once they can get the hell out of there, Picard can deal with the situation strictly between himself and Starfleet?

Because it was not an offer on the table. The offer on the table was that the Romulans would beam the entire Enterprise crew aboard the Romulan vessel, take them back to Romulus as "Guests" for a while, in which case they would get both ships, any other option, as Donlago pointed out above would likely result in "Accidental" destruction or disabling of the Enterprise which would end in the same result

So then Picard could refuse the help, bring up the shields to max, and cut himself out of the asteroid with phasers. Even with the danger of a collapse, it's not really a danger as I don't see a bunch of rocks causing any major issues with the shields up. Then to the Romulans, you just cut your way out of an asteroid, no phase cloak needed.

 

[DonIago]

Um...if Our Heroes weren't in any real danger upon being trapped in the asteroid, why did they act like they were? It's not like it was an act to fool the Romulans; they're trapped before Riker and Pressman even go over to the Pegasus.

 

[PhoenixClass]

Your lawyer in my hypothetical would argue that the flashlight gun is primarily a flashlight, at least until it is used primarily as a gun. So if secondary/primary purpose is the test, how do you determine which is which?

This is where establishing the user's intent would be important. Just about anything can have potential as a weapon if its user's disposition is one of aggression and hostility.

That depends on what level of intent is involved. The treaty seems to forbid the use (perhaps even possession) of cloaking devices by the Federation - period. They even needed special permission to use a cloaking device on the Defiant in the Gamma Quadrant in DS9. So, it seems that the treaty doesn't say, no possession with intent to use aggressively or something to that effect.

 

[Mojochi]

I don't think anyone mentioned this, but why not just have Picard and the Enterprise pretend that they are helpless inside and ask the Romulans to set them free?

Then deny any questions about any phase/cloak technology once out, and once they can get the hell out of there, Picard can deal with the situation strictly between himself and Starfleet?

Because it was not an offer on the table. The offer on the table was that the Romulans would beam the entire Enterprise crew aboard the Romulan vessel, take them back to Romulus as "Guests" for a while, in which case they would get both ships, any other option, as Donlago pointed out above would likely result in "Accidental" destruction or disabling of the Enterprise which would end in the same result

So then Picard could refuse the help, bring up the shields to max, and cut himself out of the asteroid with phasers. Even with the danger of a collapse, it's not really a danger as I don't see a bunch of rocks causing any major issues with the shields up. Then to the Romulans, you just cut your way out of an asteroid, no phase cloak needed.

Worf suggests that, & (Per the usual) gets shot down, when Data says the asteroid's internal structure is unstable. Cutting into the blocked entrance with phasers could likely cause the entire chasm to collapse, crippling & burying the ship deep inside an asteroid about half the size of a small moon, which was the reason Picard formally protested taking the ship in there to begin with. The shields might protect against hull breach during the collapse, but they'd still be trapped, & I doubt shield integrity would hold up for long if there's a gravity to the asteroid, that caused the collapse & thereafter is pressuring them.

Um...if Our Heroes weren't in any real danger upon being trapped in the asteroid, why did they act like they were? It's not like it was an act to fool the Romulans; they're trapped before Riker and Pressman even go over to the Pegasus.

Actually, the Romulans fire on the entrance while Riker & Pressman are aboard the Pegasus, until then, they still had an exit

 

[Clark Terrell]

That depends on what level of intent is involved. The treaty seems to forbid the use (perhaps even possession) of cloaking devices by the Federation - period. They even needed special permission to use a cloaking device on the Defiant in the Gamma Quadrant in DS9. So, it seems that the treaty doesn't say, no possession with intent to use aggressively or something to that effect.

No, it doesn't say that. But my point wasn't about what the treaty said or didn't say but rather whether a cloaking device in and of itself represents a weapon.

 

[DonIago]

Um...if Our Heroes weren't in any real danger upon being trapped in the asteroid, why did they act like they were? It's not like it was an act to fool the Romulans; they're trapped before Riker and Pressman even go over to the Pegasus.

Actually, the Romulans fire on the entrance while Riker & Pressman are aboard the Pegasus, until then, they still had an exit

Ah, my bad. Still, the point remains.

 

[Kronos]

They were in danger because the Romulans were not going to just sit there forever waiting for a federation rescue party, they would have fired on the asteroid until the cave collapsed and cruised off knowing the federation flagship was dust.

 

[Robert Comsol]

They were in danger because the Romulans were not going to just sit there forever waiting for a federation rescue party, they would have fired on the asteroid until the cave collapsed and cruised off knowing the federation flagship was dust.

And I thought they were just conducting incompatible experiments and the Enterprise-D would have become collateral damage.

Bob

 

[BK613]

What technology is covered by the treaty would depend a great deal on how narrowly (or broadly) the term "cloaking technology" is defined. Since we aren't privy to that definition....we are left with angels, pinheads, and dancing.

 

[DonIago]

Even if the treaty left loopholes it's possible the Federation wouldn't make a point of deliberately poking at them specifically because they found peace with the Romulans preferable to other options.

 

[Armored Saint]

What technology is covered by the treaty would depend a great deal on how narrowly (or broadly) the term "cloaking technology" is defined. Since we aren't privy to that definition....we are left with angels, pinheads, and dancing.

I hardly see Romulan diplomats being opened to this kind of semantic consideration. Even if the Romulans didn't shot your ass with disruptors or plasma torpedoes, you will open the pandora box with the Klingons, the Ferengis, the Cardassians, etc

 

[BK613]

What technology is covered by the treaty would depend a great deal on how narrowly (or broadly) the term "cloaking technology" is defined. Since we aren't privy to that definition....we are left with angels, pinheads, and dancing.

I hardly see Romulan diplomats being opened to this kind of semantic consideration. Even if the Romulans didn't shot your ass with disruptors or plasma torpedoes, you will open the pandora box with the Klingons, the Ferengis, the Cardassians, etc

Let me clarify by making explicit what I thought was implicit:
"What technology is covered by the treaty would depend a great deal on how narrowly (or broadly) the term "cloaking technology" is defined by the treaty itself."

 

[Vandervecken]

In your hypothetical, the primary purpose of the device is to be used as a a weapon. In my cases, they're neither weapons (although they may have weapons applications, which are not covered under the treaty per se) nor defenses of any kind in their primary uses.

True, a cloak is not itself a weapon - yet the treaty still bans it. Weaponization is not the key factor; capability is.

Your lawyer in my hypothetical would argue that the flashlight gun is primarily a flashlight, at least until it is used primarily as a gun. So if secondary/primary purpose is the test, how do you determine which is which?

We don't disagree on this part--weaponization not being the key factor. However, we DO disagree on mere capability being the key factor, if that capability is just a side effect (I'm not even looking at intent). I pointed to weaponization because, in your scenario, the gun is bannable because it is a weapon. My lawyer can argue the specious idea that it's a flashlight first and a gun second, but his argument would remain specious. To a sensible majority of people, it's a weapon first.

I meant phasing is not primarily a weapon at first consideration, nor would Warp 10+ speed or better ship-building materials be weapons.

Of course the treaty bans actual cloaks for the Feds--but not, as I argue, tech that merely has a cloaking effect as a secondary result. I simply do not see the Federation entering into a treaty that gives the Romulans a de facto veto over the development of technology that might have cloaking as a side effect.

Dr. Genius invents Warp 10+ drive and the Feds ditch it because, somehow, as a side effect the ship using it is invisible to Romulan sensors? Not only would they not, they should not, not unless there is some specific codicil in the treaty covering secondary effects.

 

[DonIago]

I doubt the Romulans would make the kind of distinction you're making. The end result is that the ship is cloaked. Hence whatever technology is leading the ship to be cloaked is a de facto cloaking device.

And I don't see how phasing technology isn't, if not a weapon, at least a system with obvious potential for weaponization. You're making whatever's phased invulnerable to weapons. Unless the phasing technology somehow didn't also act as a cloaking technology, you've just created a technology that could be used in an obvious first-strike attack.

Hell, it's Genesis all over again, where I respect the scientists' noble intentions but the potential for trouble is obvious.

 

[PhoenixClass]

My lawyer can argue the specious idea that it's a flashlight first and a gun second, but his argument would remain specious. To a sensible majority of people, it's a weapon first.

But you are coming back to weapons again. The important point is not that the gun is a weapon, but that that the gun is banned.

Now, why do you think it is a specious argument?

 

[Silvercrest]

So then Picard could refuse the help, bring up the shields to max, and cut himself out of the asteroid with phasers. Even with the danger of a collapse, it's not really a danger as I don't see a bunch of rocks causing any major issues with the shields up. Then to the Romulans, you just cut your way out of an asteroid, no phase cloak needed.

Worf suggests that, & (Per the usual) gets shot down, when Data says the asteroid's internal structure is unstable. Cutting into the blocked entrance with phasers could likely cause the entire chasm to collapse, crippling & burying the ship deep inside an asteroid about half the size of a small moon

Then just turn on the phase cloak. (I should have thought of this one years ago!)

If you can't fire while phased (which seems reasonable), then activate the cloak a split-second after firing torpedoes. If that's not enough time, then put the torpedoes on a delay. Make sure you blast your way out on the side of the asteroid opposite the position of the Romulan ship so they can't see you emerge. Then just sail out (whether the opening is actually large enough for you or not). The instant you emerge, turn off the cloak. Then contact the Romulans. "Oh, it seems we don't require your assistance after all. Yes, that is quite a small opening. We barely scraped through thanks to the skills of a gifted pilot. Anyway, have a nice day!
"Helm, warp three. Engage. And hurry."

There are probably several holes in this idea, but the fact is Picard wouldn't have done it anyway because he would have felt honor-bound to declare the situation to the Romulans.

 

[Mojochi]

Then just turn on the phase cloak. (I should have thought of this one years ago!)

If you can't fire while phased (which seems reasonable), then activate the cloak a split-second after firing torpedoes. If that's not enough time, then put the torpedoes on a delay. Make sure you blast your way out on the side of the asteroid opposite the position of the Romulan ship so they can't see you emerge. Then just sail out (whether the opening is actually large enough for you or not). The instant you emerge, turn off the cloak. Then contact the Romulans. "Oh, it seems we don't require your assistance after all. Yes, that is quite a small opening. We barely scraped through thanks to the skills of a gifted pilot. Anyway, have a nice day!
"Helm, warp three. Engage. And hurry."

There are probably several holes in this idea, but the fact is Picard wouldn't have done it anyway because he would have felt honor-bound to declare the situation to the Romulans.

The flaw is that firing or mining with explosives in such a way would likely collapse the chasm. The Romulans' sensors are obviously going to notice that happen. You're still emerging miraculously & using the phase cloak to do it