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[Off-Topic] Seeking advice and insight...

DigificWriter

Vice Admiral
Admiral
... on how to talk to people who have the mentality that tie-in fiction is only important if it 'counts'?

In light of the Star Wars EU being de-canonized, I've been going back and forth with a number of people who believe that its contents now have no relevance or importance and that they've wasted their time and money investing in stories that 'no longer matter'.

I'm officially at a loss as to how to talk to these people, and was hoping that some of the authors here could offer their professional opinions and insight on the subject.
 
Well they have a point. To a certain extent, for example, it's frustrating to read Indistinguishable From Magic then have Geordi's marriage not exist in the next novel. Especially if you invest in that character development and really like the outcome, to have it disappear is annoying.

Or if you really want to know what happens next, but can't anymore, because that story has ceased, right? The EU being decanonized is perhaps roughly equivalent to a beloved TV show being cancelled. I loved the TV show Carnivale, but several friends didn't want to watch it because it didn't have an ending. Seems valid to me!

On the other hand, stories are all fictional, and if you like them who cares if they "count". That's probably your best argument. But it doesn't help someone who likes the stories they read and wants those stories to continue.
 
You could always enjoy the stories on their own merits and not care if other people won't do the same for whatever reason.
 
Well they have a point. To a certain extent, for example, it's frustrating to read Indistinguishable From Magic then have Geordi's marriage not exist in the next novel. Especially if you invest in that character development and really like the outcome, to have it disappear is annoying.

Or if you really want to know what happens next, but can't anymore, because that story has ceased, right? The EU being decanonized is perhaps roughly equivalent to a beloved TV show being cancelled. I loved the TV show Carnivale, but several friends didn't want to watch it because it didn't have an ending. Seems valid to me!

On the other hand, stories are all fictional, and if you like them who cares if they "count". That's probably your best argument. But it doesn't help someone who likes the stories they read and wants those stories to continue.

The argument I've been most recently encountering is 'why should I waste time and money reading stories that don't count?'.
 
^ That's what I want to know.

The idea that the EU suddenly has no value whatsoever simply because it is no longer considered Canon is embodied in that question, and is a mentality I find completely baffling... hence my asking for advice and insight on how to counter it without being dismissive.
 
No, I understand what you're asking, I just think there's only one real counterargument here, which is:

"All fiction isn't real. There aren't degrees of unreality.

The Star Wars EU was ignored when the prequels were made; the Republic Commando series was cancelled when the animated series was made; nothing new is happening here - it has never 'counted'. While we're at it, George Lucas remade whole scenes from the original trilogy, too. I guess that stuff didn't 'count' either. In general, any author of any fictional universe is free to always have a better idea that countermands an earlier one; there's a reason 'retcon' is a term we all know these days. Happens to every universe all the time.

So: who cares? You wouldn't skip a novel that took place in 1776 because it didn't actually affect the events of 1776. They're worth reading because they're good stories."

Perhaps it would help to suggest they treat the EU as an extended piece of fiction published in-universe. I mean, there are so many novels in such a long sequence that the EU rivals any other long-running novel series ever made. There's enough material there to treat it like its own standalone entity, regardless of new movies or any other stories at all. So treat it like its own thing. The Star Wars Novel Universe. There's more storytelling time spent in that universe than in the Star Wars Cinematic Universe. Why does one have to supercede the other for YOU just because its creators said it does for THEM?

For Trek it's a much easier argument; there is no other continuation, so this might as well be the "real" one. But even if it isn't, who cares? It's an enormous, complex, fantastic set of interrelated stories. Read it for the enjoyment of the storytelling. It's all fiction anyway.
 
^ Thank you for that, Thrawn. I've been saying something similar re: things not changing, but keep getting the 'the de-canonization of the EU suddenly makes all the time and money I wasted investing it wasted' argument or the 'why should I waste my time and money on stories that don't count' argument in response.
 
When they say their investment was wasted, ask them what ultimate goal they thought they were striving for that hasn't already been fulfilled. It's not like something was going to happen at some point in the future that would provide a final payoff for their investment and that has now been prevented from happening. The reward for their investment was their enjoyment of the books while they read them. So as long as they enjoyed the experience of reading, their investment was not wasted.
 
I posted Thrawn's thoughts, and got the following response:
JediKnight75 said:
I'm referring to within their fictional universe. So of course I'd read a novel written in 1776 even if it didn't affect the events of that year. But I wouldn't buy a Star Wars book set in 30 ABY that doesn't really affect the events of 30 ABY. Also, there is a difference between a retcon and a reboot. Retcons change an aspect of a story not the story in its entirety. So after TCW, Republic Commando was still canon, outside of certain aspect. Also, the series wasn't cancelled by the publisher, but due to the author's decision. If she had wanted to, she could have finished the series. With George Lucas changing scenes, nothing major was changed. Then with the prequels, the EU was allowed to work with the continuity problems and find a way to keep everything canon. The characters and events remained. In the case of a reboot, not a single plot point or character development from the stories will remain, except maybe a few ideas, but the essence of the stories will no longer count. Thus, what we are hearing may happen is fundamentally different than anything that has happened within the Star Wars universe.

How would you guys respond?
 
I've never understood the mentality you guys are discussing here. As long as a story is good, I really don't care about the continuity/canonacity. I'm reading TNG: Dark Mirror right now, and I'm loving it, even if it does kind of contradict the DS9+ version of the MU. I also plan on reading Federation, and already read both Strangers from the Sky, and Spock's World. I just want to read an enjoyable story, the continuity/consistency is just a plus.
One of the things I loved about the Myriad Universe stories, was that it gave the authors the opportunity to contradict canon, and take things in their own directions.
 
I also just received this response, which I'd also like advice in responding to:
blackmyron said:
Jango_Fett21 said:
All fiction isn't real. There aren't degrees of unreality.

On the contrary, people tend to prefer stories where they have suspension of belief and often have the distressing tendency to want to have more stories with the same characters, places, settings, etc. Forget the books and comics - isn't that exactly what the CWAS, and Rebels, and the PT are? This is why we have story universes. Universes populated with one-dimensional characters and two-dimensional buildings tend to not be good stories. It's the illusion of a sense of history, or a filled-in map - depth to the setting.

Jango_Fett21 said:
So: who cares?
If you haven't figured that out yet, maybe the Lit boards aren't the best place to be.

Jango_Fett21 said:
You wouldn't skip a novel that took place in 1776 because it didn't actually affect the events of 1776. They're worth reading because they're good stories.
If a novel "set" in 1776 AD didn't reference current events, or the past, or have anything to do with setting, or was poorly researched that it displayed a number of historical anachonisms due to lazy (or no) research, I would skip it, yes. I don't need a bunch of historical cameos or whatever, but if you can't be bothered to use the setting correctly what exactly was the point in using it at all? Because that's not a good story.

"Affecting the events" is a red herring, as well as your odd implication that all historical fiction should be equivalent the Star Wars EU.
 
Pretty much agree with what JD wrote.

I don't really get why obviously so many people were fooled by the bullshit marketing of the EU books being some kind of canon. I always felt it was extremely dishonest to say the books were canon, when pretty much all Lucas said IIRC that they are "real" as long as he doesn't choose to contradict them, which pretty much is the same status ST books have, only that with ST everyone was honest enough to not pretend that this status was somehow special.
 
Shrug.

https://xkcd.com/386/

It's a valid point of view. Like when people got pissed about Dallas's 9th season all being a dream.

I imagine it feels somewhat like building a tower, a tower that could continue to be built indefinitely without any defined endpoint, but nonetheless a tower with some serious time and energy in it, and then having that tower knocked down unexpectedly.

I don't agree with that perspective; I agree with Christopher's point. But I can see how someone would feel that way.
 
A large part of this is to do with marketing.

For instance, Trek books were not - and never have been, to the best of my knowledge - sold as the official continuation of anything. It was stated up-front that they were not, no matter how carefully they may be put together or executed.

In contrast, following the unexpected success of Heir to the Empire, Bantam and LFL kicked off a programme of books that did declare that!

Now, you can argue that for the best part of a decade that claim has been undermined by Lucas and LFL - by the fact of things like the Clone Wars cartoon, but in contrast to the clear honesty of Trek's marketing, Wars has opted for a perpetual haze and it's that, now, that's coming back to bite 'em in the arse.

Strange as it may sound, if anything I've found Trek, over the last 15 years, to exhibit greater care and attention to detail in its many "unofficial" books than Wars! Certainly in terms of overall health and sustanability, I'd rank Pocket Books Trek line as way ahead of Wars, which has had a sustained self-cannibalism tendency for the last 15 years!

What it comes down to in effect is, to invoke a famous relevant one-liner: "Altering the deal"! Books were marketed as X, now they're being declared Y - that's what people are hacked off with. (It's a bigger version of what happened with DC Comics' big New 52 reboot, although Wars doesn't seem to have learnt the lesson from that that, if you're going to reboot, at least allow the old version to shut up shop gracefully.)

Am I likely to buy much in the way of Wars EU 2.0? Probably not, much as I didn't buy much of the New 52 in protest at the way it shut down previous stories - which is the only real protest I, as a consumer, have, vote with the wallet. Although, in all honesty it would not be the sole reason for ceasing my involvement with SW, as it's been in decline for quite some time.
 
Frankly, having abandoned the Star Wars EU a few years back for basically the "sustained self-cannibalism" tendency you just mentioned, I'm kind of enjoying the enormous fanbase clusterfuck this is becoming / will become. Schadenfreude or whatever. I realize this probably makes me kind of a bad person.
 
I have to admit, were it not for the DSN relaunch and the work of Marco Palmieri as editor, I would not have found my way to the Trek books - that's where I started. In contrast to the carnage of Wars' NJO, the books Palmieri oversaw were smart but careful continuations, put together with an eye to there actually being further adventures! It was then and remains a major contrast now.

The other thing I liked was that upfront honesty coupled with the sheer ambition of the books, in effect: Yeah, they don't count, know what? We don't care - GET A LOAD O' THIS!

And, for the last 8 years, Trek has successfully done a multi-era publishing programme, with a mix of existing and new properties - I'm loving Vanguard for instance. In contrast to Wars? In 2006, Wars did a 100 year TNG-style time jump forward - it remains a massive controversy to this day with fans claiming that bad stuff happening 100 years on renders the OT achievements void! (You can guess which side I'm on.) Trek? Been there, done that, it's kind of liked. Even the Abrams' New Trek you can just play the multiverse card - how many timelines are there again?

Point is, to me, Trek is both more flexible as a franchise compared to Wars but so too are its fans!

To be honest, for the real clusterfrell, I'm told Ep 7 forum discussions are where to find the real deal!
 
Frankly, having abandoned the Star Wars EU a few years back for basically the "sustained self-cannibalism" tendency you just mentioned, I'm kind of enjoying the enormous fanbase clusterfuck this is becoming / will become. Schadenfreude or whatever. I realize this probably makes me kind of a bad person.

:lol:

If you're a bad person, Thrawn, so am I. In fact, the not-inconsiderable part of me that enjoys having the anthills kicked over has sort of been anticipating the "decanonization" of the Star Wars EU with something approaching mild satisfaction for some time. It probably makes me sound horrible, but having come up against the "I don't read Trek books because they're not canon so they mean nothing" attitude rather too often, I must admit there's something satisfying in watching that particular edifice crumble.

For what it's worth, as someone who prefers continuity, ongoing arcs and consistency in the novels (whatever universe we're discussing), I understand the disappointment in having the long-standing insistence that Star Wars is one big continuity done away with. About a year and a half ago, I went on my first major Star Wars EU marathon - I read everything set chronologically from The Truce at Bakura through to The Unifying Force, because I'd been told that it makes a satisfying meta-story, and if I liked the modern Trek novels I'd like the approach of the Star Wars books.

I greatly enjoyed the SW marathon - it was a satisfying story (with a great three-act structure, as it happens).

Look at it this way. I read a book of short stories once about the Bounty Hunters from The Empire Strikes Back. I enjoyed the Bossk story, in which our lovable Trandoshan friend winds up in an Imperial prison, destined to be skinned so the local governor's wife can use his scales for a coat (it's a "poetic justice" kind of thing, given that Bossk was hunting Wookiees to use their pelts for the same purpose). The story ends with Bossk left there. Now, I was idly interested in what else had been revealed about the character, so I looked him up on the Star Wars wiki. And apparently there are other Bossk stories set after this one in which he's still flying around the galaxy in the ship that just got confiscated, scaly hide intact. These are all supposed to take place in the same continuity, so all the wiki could say was, essentially "er, but somehow he escaped, recaptured his ship, and carried on business as usual?"

So it was obvious to me then than the Star Wars books weren't that different from the Star Trek ones in their approach; they simply pretend (or many fans do) it all fits rather than using broad strokes, or wait for an official retcon. All fair enough - the Trek novels clear up little discreprancies and continuity issues all the time. But it was clear that the two franchises aren't really that different in reality, only in fans' perceptions and in what the creators say.

That Star Wars marathon I mentioned - the continuity was tight, but there were little mistakes and contradictions and oddities in there, later publications changing things so that earlier works set chronologically later have some odd claims to make - in other words, just like the modern Trek novel 'verse, the only difference being the Trek books have no official policy toward shared continuity; it's just something that developed because, presumably, the authors enjoy or see the advantage of keeping consistency over most of the novels.

I understand why it's a blow, but I guess that as a fan of the Star Trek novel 'verse, I just can't personally see how the EU's "decanonization" ruins anything. That continuity is all still there, it's still as good. It's as official as you want it to be.

"Head Cannon", etc. :)
 
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Whatever term we opt for - I'm reliably informed you will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy than Ep 7 forums! :)

For myself, I would admit to not knowing where to start on Trek books without the DSN Relaunch basically giving out big "START HERE" vibes. There was then - and even more so now - so many books!

I'll also admit I've never gotten the whole pissing up a wall attitude with fans, the whole "my one's better than your one" schtick.
 
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