Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

[MacLeod]

Someone who understands Decartes?

You'll have to do better than that.

Yes, he does....demonstrably

And whose thoughts are they exactly? Tuvix? Neelix? Tuvok?





You can be as facetious as you wish. My point is perfectly valid. He has just undergone a radical accident and has been alive for the proverbial ten minutes. It seems LIKELY that he will have stability issues and with all kinds of fusion of brain tissue, Vulcan/Talaxian blood/dna/cells etc it seems likely that something will eventually go wrong.

Also, nobody mentioned mental illness lowering the validity of existence. Those are your words not mine.





I will say this again: DOES HE POSSESS IT? 'He' is a fusion of two men there is no Tuvix he is the combined face of Neelix and Tuvok. I don't quite know what you are trying to say there about Descartes. Tuvix having a mind is not a debate here, one of Descartes most basic theories is that outside of the mind is to be doubted and is very hard to prove....my point is that the mind the Tuvix possesses MUST belong to Tuvok and Neelix. It does not necessarily equate to him have an entirely different mind. In a sense he has two, neither of which are his.





In what way are they dead? They are both strolling about, fused together, minds merged, as 'Tuvix'. They are far from dead. It is unclear just how dead their minds actually are.





They do have consciousness. Because their programs were so advanced that they could be deemed to be sentient. Again, quote Descartes all you like, we can discuss the Meditations as much as you wish. The point here, is that mind is not actually his. It belongs to Tuvok and Neelix.





It is impossible to know if he hears any wishes to ignore. He, as far as we see, is simply created and wishes to live. The most basic instinctual desire of any animal. It does not validate HIS consciousness as a unique one and certainly not as one that is independent of Neelix and Tuvok.

Its not an either or situation? Are you serious? The whole point is that its exactly an either or situation! Either she saves Neelix and Tuvok or she allows Tuvix to live.

You're turning this into a very black and white issue which i don't think it can ever be....plus i wasn't referring to Tuvix so much as Janeway.....i'm bascially saying that you don't have to accept that Tuvix wasn't real in order to defend Janeway from the accusation of murder....they are not mutually exclusive

Janeway's decision was right (and she did not commit murder) but equally, Tuvix was very definitely real and very definitely an individual with his own consciousness

'Very definitely' again is assumptive. There is nowhere near enough evidence in the episode to completely give a definitive answer on this. We see very little of him and he wants to live....great. As any animal would.

At the end of the day, anyone who calls Janeway a murderer is bordering on hysterical and she made the most ethical, moral decision in a difficult, tragic circumstance.

No there not, they simply accept that Tuvix had a right to live, and that right was taken from him against his will. Even you admit that he was definantly an indivudal with his own consciousness. So from a LEGAL point of view doesn't this individual with a consciousness have a right to live?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Janeway must have murdered lots of people and things over the course of her career, so of course she's a murder whether those kills were righteous and sanctified by Federation law or not.

She was either blessed or a wussy if at that late stage in the game she was still a murder virgin.

The sentient syphilis swimming about inside Tuvix was a valued life form enough to be put back where it belonged in that episode, but a couple months later and the Captain Exterminated it with extreme prejudice, despite living inside the old Vulcan PE teacher for twice as long as she'd been alive, Janeway had the moral authority to make that decision.

 

[hux]

You'll have to do better than that.

No, not really....that’s kinda the point....I’m not saying you have to agree with Descartes but using his definition of existence, Tuvix qualifies entirely

And whose thoughts are they exactly? Tuvix? Neelix? Tuvok?

Well exactly....for example, the thought...”i don’t want Tuvok and Neelix to be brought back...i want to continue as Tuvix”....who does that thought belong to then?

You can be as facetious as you wish. My point is perfectly valid. He has just undergone a radical accident and has been alive for the proverbial ten minutes. It seems LIKELY that he will have stability issues and with all kinds of fusion of brain tissue, Vulcan/Talaxian blood/dna/cells etc it seems likely that something will eventually go wrong.

Also, nobody mentioned mental illness lowering the validity of existence. Those are your words not mine.

In a discussion about whether or not someone exists, how is it valid to point out that he may get ill (physically or mentally) that doesn’t mean anything....Neelix may get ill...doesn’t detract from his existence being real

I will say this again: DOES HE POSSESS IT? 'He' is a fusion of two men there is no Tuvix he is the combined face of Neelix and Tuvok. I don't quite know what you are trying to say there about Descartes. Tuvix having a mind is not a debate here, one of Descartes most basic theories is that outside of the mind is to be doubted and is very hard to prove....my point is that the mind the Tuvix possesses MUST belong to Tuvok and Neelix. It does not necessarily equate to him have an entirely different mind. In a sense he has two, neither of which are his.

If i take a dump and the stool has consciousness and thinks where am i...why was i hanging out of that mans anus.....then by Descartes criteria, it exists...regardless of its origins, regardless of it’s reliance on me as progenitor, regardless of it’s imminent flushing.....IT THINKS.....IT EXISTS!

They do have consciousness. Because their programs were so advanced that they could be deemed to be sentient. Again, quote Descartes all you like, we can discuss the Meditations as much as you wish. The point here, is that mind is not actually his. It belongs to Tuvok and Neelix.

Mind or Brain?....you’re shifting the goal posts now and accepting that Tuvix exists but that his consciousness is borrowed. I see no evidence of that. He may have the matter of Tuvok and Neelix but his consciousness is his own....the fact that he is willing to sacrifice Tuvok and Neelix to keep it, highlights this.....and it matters not a jot that it requires Tuvok and Neelix for that new consciousness to exist

It is impossible to know if he hears any wishes to ignore. He, as far as we see, is simply created and wishes to live. The most basic instinctual desire of any animal. It does not validate HIS consciousness as a unique one and certainly not as one that is independent of Neelix and Tuvok.........he wants to live....great. As any animal would.

Again, these goal posts are moving.....now he does exist (phew) but his existence is simplistic (like that of an animal) and therefore can be dismissed as less valid and less real. Seems to me that you’re coming around to the fact that he exists but you want his existence to be terminated without complications so he exists but only in the most basic manner

My position is....Tuvix did exist as an independent consciousness but not as an independent life form. Janeway’s actions pose questions about the nature of consciousness and rights but cannot be classed as murder because the physical matter of Tuvix was not actually destroyed (only the consciousness) No jury would convict (but some philosophers might.....and that’s enough for the question to hang over this episode and for there to be no definite right answer....i’m not asking you to change your view, just to accept that there may be some grey area here)

 

[Guy Gardener]

Janeway had to think about.

If he wasn't real, she wouldn't have had to think about it.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

BOOM all toasters are real boys.

 

[urbandefault]

No seriously what if LUMPS of Tuvok and Neelix were sticking out of the sides of Tuvix, what if you could see pure pieces of Tuvok and Neelix?! There is existence is being erased by the pro-Tuvix crowd because they cannot be seen. So conveniently invisible.

So, do we get to poke at the bits sticking out just to watch them wiggle?

Then by all means, Tuvix must live! Let the poking begin!

 

[TheGoodStuff]

Again, these goal posts are moving.....now he does exist (phew) but his existence is simplistic (like that of an animal) and therefore can be dismissed as less valid and less real. Seems to me that you’re coming around to the fact that he exists but you want his existence to be terminated without complications so he exists but only in the most basic manner

In what manner are you desperate to prove he exists? Physically he is just Neelix and Tuvok. Mentally he only SEEMS to perhaps have his own thoughts. It does not necessarily make it so. Im dismissing his survival desire which is the most basic animalistic function. He does not really exist, he never did. Two people have been forced together so he 'seems' different but in reality...he is not. He is just two people.

As I said, we have no clue what is actually going on in the head, what he knows, what he thinks, what he hears. All we know is he wants to live. Because being dematerialzed and split in half is likely to be a bit scary.

My position is....Tuvix did exist as an independent consciousness but not as an independent life form. Janeway’s actions pose questions about the nature of consciousness and rights but cannot be classed as murder because the physical matter of Tuvix was not actually destroyed (only the consciousness) No jury would convict (but some philosophers might.....and that’s enough for the question to hang over this episode and for there to be no definite right answer....i’m not asking you to change your view, just to accept that there may be some grey area here)

If the physical matter of Tuvix was not destroyed, then why can you not make the leap to see that his mental self was not destroyed either? I acknowledge that his mind is dependent on this fusion but EVERYTHING that it is composed of is simply Neelix and Tuvok. There is no third person, the way this 'third' being is expressing itself may SEEM like a third person but the only physical and mental matter it has belong to Tuvok and Neelix.

The joy of this argument, of course, and the beauty of the episode is how grey an area and how open to interpretation it
truly is.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

As said:
The number of posters de facto advocating as moral the cold-blooded killing of a person in order to chop him/her up for spare organs - against his/her express wishes - for the purpose of using these organs to save 2 persons from deep coma is shockingly high.

Tuvix is not a sapient, intelligent being now?
What non-sense. The episode went to some length to establish Tuvix as a sapient, intelligent person; his own being, separate from both Tuvok or Neelix.

 

[hux]

In what manner are you desperate to prove he exists? Physically he is just Neelix and Tuvok. Mentally he only SEEMS to perhaps have his own thoughts. It does not necessarily make it so. Im dismissing his survival desire which is the most basic animalistic function. He does not really exist, he never did. Two people have been forced together so he 'seems' different but in reality...he is not. He is just two people.

But i don’t accept that it’s basic....i don’t see him as irrationally grasping at survival. He makes a reasoned argument for his existence. He demonstrates thought and emotion. His decision would lead to the death of Tuvok and Neelix which neither of them would want (and in doing so proves that his consciousness is separate from theirs)

If the physical matter of Tuvix was not destroyed, then why can you not make the leap to see that his mental self was not destroyed either?

Because we can define matter scientifically....but we can only define consciousness from a philosophical perspective and so it's more complex, abstract, murky

I acknowledge that his mind is dependent on this fusion but EVERYTHING that it is composed of is simply Neelix and Tuvok. There is no third person, the way this 'third' being is expressing itself may SEEM like a third person but the only physical and mental matter it has belong to Tuvok and Neelix.

But that doesn’t explain his willingness to sacrifice Tuvok and Neelix. The idea that it’s from some simple survival instinct doesn’t work either. Firstly because of the reasons above and secondly because after he has made his “thoughtful” and reasoned argument, he then accepts his fate. True survival instinct would have him punching people, running down corridors, grappling with security, kicking and screaming until the last....but instead he accepts (with a reasoned mind) that his voice will go unheard

For me the deciding factor in accepting he is a separate consciousness is his willingness to sacrifice Tuvok and Neelix to keep it. The only way i would be willing to entertain the possibility that Tuvix did not possess unique consciousness (and was simply two minds combined) is if you accept that some part of Tuvok or Neelix (or both) secretly wanted to remain as Tuvix

But which one?

 

[Brit]

Even you admit that he was definantly an indivudal with his own consciousness. So from LEGAL point of view doesn't this individual with a consciousness have a right to live?

This is where your argument falls apart, the only argument you can make using Legality is conjecture on your part. You don't know what is legal or not in Janeway's situation or time for that matter.

You assume it is a problem, some of us assume that it is not a problem. The evidence on our side is that Janeway got home and a couple of years later we see her promoted in rank. Where is your evidence?

Ethics is one argument but legality is a completely different argument and you have no base in canon to make that argument. Canon it would seem supports Janeway's decision.

Edited to add

Since I have already stated that in the US organ donation is illegal without the consent of the donor or a qualified representative of the donor. I thought it might be nice to know what is legal in Great Britain for MacLeod's basis for Legality

Section 43 of the HT Act gives limited exception to the requirement for consent so that the fewest number of steps may be taken after death, using the least invasive techniques, to preserve organs while consent is sought for donation; the suggested techniques are intravascular or intraperitoneal cooling. ‘Appropriate’ consent must be obtained for removal, storage and use of organs or tissues for transplantation. Consent may have been given by the donor while alive, and voluntary organ donor registration by a competent minor or adult is deemed to constitute informed consent. If the deceased had nominated a representative while he or she was a competent adult, that person can consent to donation. Otherwise, a qualifying relative may be approached to give consent. At the top of the eight-step hierarchy of qualifying relatives is spouse or partner, and at the bottom is a friend of long-standing. A child cannot have a spouse or partner, so parent is his highest qualifying relative. The HT Act accepts that there may be reasons in certain cases and circumstances to vary the hierarchy, and the urgency of finding someone to consent to donation could be such a circumstance. Consent conditional on who will receive a cadaveric donation is not accepted. There is no guidance to organ procurement in cases where consent is unobtainable, and it is important to emphasise that procurement without consent has been made unlawful.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3025214/

 

[Guy Gardener]

Tuvix is a real person but he does not own his own organs.

Neelix and Tuvok do.

What he has are squatters rights.

 

[MacLeod]

Are you arguing that an individual has no rights in the UFP?

And you have no basis in canon to refute my claims. But conjecture from what limited amount of the UFP Legal system we have seen would at least seem to support than an individual has the rights of freedom and self-determination.

How about this line from BOBW

Picard: Impossible. My culture is based on freedom and self-determination.

So wasn't Tuvix exercsing his right of self-determination?

What about "Measure of Man" in part that was about does Data have the right of self-determination.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Are you talking to me?

Because I was just being silly.

 

[MacLeod]

Are you talking to me?

Because I was just being silly.

Well not in relation to your post at least.

 

[Guy Gardener]

If this moral imperative was so important, then Kathryn should have gone and ahabbed for Neelix's lungs that were stolen by the Vidiaans in season one and got them back... And further more when Neelix and Kes broke up, she could have asked for her lung back from Neelix which she donated.

How did THE Vidiaan organ black market work any way?

Did the recipients know that they were harvested from the uniwilling and murdered, or did they believe a bunch of lies to keep their peace of mind?

If the recipient doiesn't know that they (two lungs, two recipients?) have to hide, Voyager might have been able to find them with ships sensors scanning Vidia from orbit.

But this is a point that Tuvix should have brought up about how Janeway usually doesn't care whear his organs wind up deposited, hell Tuvix could have made a ruckus and demanded they turn the ship around right now to go get them, since why should have have to die to make an inferior version of Neelix that 's only up to 90 percent of specifications?

 

[Vandervecken]

NOT bringing back Tuvok and Neelix is equivalent to withholding necessary medical attention from them. They were NOT dead--obviously.

I'm not saying that what was done to Tuvix wasn't murder, but I AM saying that not bringing back Tuvok and Neelix would ALSO have been murder. There really is no good moral/ethical equation to work this out. The moral, of course, is to never get in the fershlugginer transporter! Ever!

 

[MacLeod]

I disagree that not brining back Tuvok and Neelix would have been murder. Murder generally requires you do an act which results in the death of another person. If you do nothing (unless you had a duty of care i.e. a Doctor) than you can't be held liable for murder.

Now you could posisble argue that as Captain Janeway had a duty of care to those under her command, but once again Starfleet does act as the military force of the UFP and in a military sometimes people die. Secondly Tuvix was a civiliian and one of the duties of Starfleet is to protect the lives of civilians even at the cost of their own lives. Yes Neelix was a civilian also but he accepted the risks by signing up to serve onboard Voyager.

Now if Tuvix had gone through the transporter and it had sperated him back into Neelix and Tuvok without any action by Janeway then it's not murder. By forcing him to undergo a medical proecudre against his will performed by Janeway which resulted in the termination of his existance then it's murder.

Tuvok was duty bound to relenquish his life to safe the life of a civilian. The fact that this civilian was born out of a transporter accident doesn't diminish that fact.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Tuvok believed in suicide (Deathwish) therefore Tuvix Believed in suicide, therefor it wasn't such a big ask.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

But which afterlife would he end up in?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Maybe that's why Neelix couldn't get past the bouncer into the enchanted Forest in Mortal Coil?

Tuvix stole his place!

Vulcan's don't die any more?

(Barring accidents and surprises.)

They just shove their minds into other people or soulbanks.

Suicide must be an easy way out if on the other side of this, you're going to be stuck into a new young firm fit body?

Or possibly old people might chose to really, really die, die, leaving a hollow vessel behind that Vulcan's who actually want to live can use and meld into?