I'm really not following you here. All I took the scene to be was that she's straight, she's disappointed the new host is female (or, as I said elsewhere, disappointed that it was not the host she fell in love with), and she gave a wandering and self-conscious speech about how she is sorry, I don't love you anymore, wish I could.
Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe
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I'm really not following you here. All I took the scene to be was that she's straight, she's disappointed the new host is female (or, as I said elsewhere, disappointed that it was not the host she fell in love with), and she gave a wandering and self-conscious speech about how she is sorry, I don't love you anymore, wish I could.
It's the same person, different equipment. It raises a very interesting moral question: what is it that makes us like or love another human being? That's what they were getting at. She is essentially saying, she fell for his body. She liked him because of his body, and she cannot separate this person from the body.
I understand that. What I don't understand is the argument, raised by Nightdiamond (and others in other threads) is that Beverly is expressing a 24th century belief that orientation is somehow unenlightened or regressive.
What?! Seriously?
No one is being killed, a "cured" BLACK person is still alive, they are just genetically or chemically altered. In fact this may be done before they are ever are aware they are BLACK (ie. in the womb or at a very young age).
Do you see what happened there?
There are different kinds of love, erotic love is only one and they can be interrelated. But you can't expect a person to want to make love to somebody they don't find attractive even if they love them.
I don't think homosexuality is an abnormality but you have to think even in an enlightened world some who are gay would prefer to be straight. And I must pose the question, can a culture where embracing one's gender identity is sacrosanct, could you judge a person for wanting to do this any more than you can judge a person who surgically changes their gender?
It's also possible in the 24th century would want to become homosexual so they can be attracted to a person of the same gender they love as a person.
I don't think homosexuality is an abnormality but you have to think even in an enlightened world some who are gay would prefer to be straight. And I must pose the question, can a culture where embracing one's gender identity is sacrosanct, could you judge a person for wanting to do this any more than you can judge a person who surgically changes their gender?
It's also possible in the 24th century would want to become homosexual so they can be attracted to a person of the same gender they love as a person.
Whoa, Nelly. You cannot expect to make love to someone you don't find attractive, even if you love them? What about a person that is horribly disfigured in a car accident or has a mastectomy? Do you dump your wife if she becomes too fat? How about too old? That's not very strong love.
There are transwomen who are married to a woman as a man, and then transition where they stay with the partner. In fact, one of my favorite movies is about exactly that--Normal.
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Yeah, one's orientation is neither enlightened or unenlightened. It is simply biology. Beverly was physically attracted to the trill male, but that same physical attraction was lacking for the female trill. It happens. There's nothing inherently wrong in it.
Beverly's just expressing her OWN belief: she likes guys, and not girls. Also she is uncomfortable with her lover constantly changing bodies. Neither of these is evidence of prejudice, that I can see - just trying to let Kareel off as easy as possible so as not to hurt her feelings.
Sexuality might become more variable in general, as the centuries go on, but there will always be preferences. People will have likes and dislikes. There are certain things people won't do, certain kinds of other people they won't be attracted to. This will never change. Not everybody will like everybody and everything. There's nothing inherently wrong with this. All that matters is how they express it, and Beverly was trying to be as nice as possible.
To bring up a real world example: For a given couple who've been married to each other for a long time, and then one of them decides they want to be a different gender, what's the other person supposed to do about it? If they decide they can't handle the situation, and they can't stay married to the other person (which is their right), that is not in itself a prejudiced or hateful thing. It's all in how they decide to approach their partner about it.
^ I hate to sound harsh, but I think having Beverly go along with Kareel would have been taking the easy way out. Bev had the courage NOT to feel she had to keep up the relationship simply because it was still (technically) Odan. And, as I said, Beverly was as considerate of Kareel Odan's feelings as it was possible to be. It's not like Bev said "Ewww, go away", after all.
There was an article on the BBC News website just yesterday about homosexuality and how it fits in with Darwinism. Over the last couple of decades scientists have started to see homosexuality as something that is written into our genes, so it is as much part of who I am as is the colour of my eyes. By the 24th century, genetic manipulation is illegal except in the case of severe birth defects, and since homosexuality isn't one then the parents can look forward to a healthy baby.
Maybe in-universe, but certainly not out-of-universe.
Additionally, if she had gone along with it then I think they would have had to follow up on it at some point.
Maybe so, but we're still not talking about 'coming out' experiences. Coming out implies you were hiding, which implies that either you or others were ashamed/might be ashamed of this particular trait.
I can see in a few cases how it might nominally apply to the son of a famous doctor refusing to go to medical school, for instance, but in the vast majority of cases, when someone picks a major, they just say 'Dad, I'm going to study biology," and that's that. Whether Dad tries to argue or not, it still doesn't suddenly transform into a 'coming out'. There is no hiding, and no coming out. The same is true for just about every other subject I can think of off the top of my head, except for homosexuality and poverty and perhaps certain types of religion. And everything I can think of about the Federation tells me that those sort of things are not at all to be ashamed of in the future, which for me says that 'coming out' as a cultural phenomenon does not exist in the 24th century.
Yes, parents may still have expectations of their children and will in many cases continue to be disappointed when their children make other choices, but that is not at all the same thing. That is a universal hazard of parenting that has always affected everyone, regardless of race, religion or sexual orientation.
I disagree that coming out implies hiding. I wear a pride bracelet pretty much all the time, so I believe it's safe to say I'm not hiding, but at the same time that's not the same as explicitly telling anyone my orientation. To my mind coming out involves removing any element of uncertainty regarding the situation.
I haven't come out to my coworkers, but I'm not ashamed of my homosexuality, and I really don't care whether they'd be "ashamed" of it.
I imagine there might be multiple cases where students aren't honest with their parents about what they're studying, and at some point they do need to "come out" about it.
I don't know why you're limiting it to parents either. There's extended family, friends, coworkers, potential mates, teachers ...anyone for whom it's important to you that they know that you're not heterosexual.
Coming out isn't about being ashamed about anything; it's about wanting people to know who you are. You don't ultimately come out for other people; you do it for yourself.
I tell people I'm Jewish because if I don't, people tend to assume otherwise. I tell people I'm gay for the same reason. I want people to know who I am rather than operating under false assumptions about things that matter to me.
I haven't come out to my coworkers, but I'm not ashamed of my homosexuality, and I really don't care whether they'd be "ashamed" of it.
I imagine there might be multiple cases where students aren't honest with their parents about what they're studying, and at some point they do need to "come out" about it.
I don't know why you're limiting it to parents either. There's extended family, friends, coworkers, potential mates, teachers ...anyone for whom it's important to you that they know that you're not heterosexual.
Coming out isn't about being ashamed about anything; it's about wanting people to know who you are. You don't ultimately come out for other people; you do it for yourself.
I tell people I'm Jewish because if I don't, people tend to assume otherwise. I tell people I'm gay for the same reason. I want people to know who I am rather than operating under false assumptions about things that matter to me.
I'm not limiting it to parents, just following the conversation which had already focused on parents.
Would you say that telling people you're Jewish is 'coming out'? Because that doesn't seem at all accurate to me, unless perhaps the person you tell or the society you live in is wildly anti-semitic.
This is the big difference to me: You can tell people you're Gay because you don't want them to assume otherwise. But you can also tell them you're a country music fan, a star trek fan, a lawyer, a democrat or just about anything else because you don't want them to assume otherwise. I wouldn't characterize any of those conversations as 'coming out' unless there is some kind of serious negative social pressure involved. Pressure that shouldn't exist in the Federation.
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Well, being gay is biological. It's different than saying you're a country music fan, or a lawyer, for that reason. It is a part of your core identity. It is a part of you, and there's a fear that someone will reject your being gay, and by doing so, reject a part of you. I mean, you might like country music now, but hate it later. You may be a lawyer now but, later on, start your own computer repair business instead. Being gay means you were gay, are gay, and will continue to be gay for the rest of your life. That is why "coming out" is such an event for some, and it's rare enough that it may draw attention, because let's face it, even in an enlightened 24th century future, there are always going to be assholes, and you won't know who they are until they find out you're someone they don't like.
That's fair enough, but if we're talking about assholes making fun of people for who they are, then all that means is that in the 24th century, gay people are still in exactly the same position as everyone else - where the occassional asshole may go after them for being gay/physically handicapped/less intelligent/more intelligent/foreign/alien/red headed/fat/skinny/big nosed/idealistic/cynical/etc, etc, etc.
As long as society itself does not tolerate such assholes, as the Federation clearly should not, they should be relatively few and far between, especially in comparison to our time. Which still adds up to Gays in the 24th century not facing the kind of negative social pressure that produces a 'coming out' experience.
As long as society itself does not tolerate such assholes, as the Federation clearly should not, they should be relatively few and far between, especially in comparison to our time. Which still adds up to Gays in the 24th century not facing the kind of negative social pressure that produces a 'coming out' experience.
Switching intolerance to a different group of people is not the answer.
If gays are still ostracized and considered "abnormal" in the Trek future, this could explain why we see no evidence of us in the show.
If gays are still ostracized and considered "abnormal" in the Trek future, this could explain why we see no evidence of us in the show.
This view represents catch 22 again--both inside the Trek universe and outside.
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