Fans Disenfranchised with Utopia?

[BigJake]

Federation? Not important in the slightest. Exists merely to legitimize Starfleet.

In fact, how long was it in TOS before they decided they were working for a Federation? In a lot of episodes they're still just working for "Earth."

 

[TheGoodStuff]

Thus, I adore Roddenberry's vision. A socialist, atheistic, rational Earth where freedom and liberty are so respected

I could handle the "rational" part, but not the other two. I would not, for example, want to live on an Earth where I was not allowed to practice my religion (alone or in groups), or where the government is so omnipresent as to decide for me what I must contribute.

Edit: What AirCommodore said. Utopia cannot exist, because there's no universal definition of one. You can have an Earth where people aren't actively trying to kill each other 24/7, for example (I'd like such an Earth), but try to take too many definitions of Utopia into account and you end up with unrelenting blandness.[/QUOTE]

My interpretation, is that of course you would be allowed to practice your religion if you so wish....but the vast majority of the population have managed to free themselves of such superstition.

Utopia is a fan made label for the Star Trek Federation. Liberty and freedom seem to be paramount. No doubt there is disagreement and debate [which is healthy] but there is no greed/racism/homophobia etc etc.

 

[AirCommodore]

Reading these boards, as I often do, it kind of surprises me how we STAR TREK fans are anything but united by Gene Roddenberry's bold vision of the future. Without him, we continue to be leaderless and divided.

Do we, in our hearts, no longer believe in Utopia? Indeed, did we ever pledge ourselves - genuinely - to Gene Roddenberry's teachings? Imagine that the Apollo Moon Landing did for the world what First Contact did in STAR TREK. It did, in some ways, by showing us how small, singular and fragile Earth is ... but not alot, unfortunately.

STAR TREK's positive message of Hope and Peace always made me a fan. I needn't tell you how the World is a pretty mean place and shows like STAR TREK, but STAR TREK specifically, was always a place where magic and a charming sort of innocense could still exist amongst adults.

The problem with Ideal Societies is getting everyone who lives in it to agree on what exactly the Ideal is. To racial separatists, the Ideal is one thing. To religious fundamentalists, it might be something very different. The same applies to Libertarians, Greens, Maoists, Socialists, or ethnic nationalists.

What is Ideal to some of these groups would be a dystopian nightmare society to others. IDIC itself would called genocide by racial separatists. We have to consider the possibility that one Ideal held by all humanity simultaneously everywhere may not be attainable.

Actually, one could argue that one of the reasons that Earth is more "utopian" in the future is that:

1) The bulk of the racist nationalist malcontents perished in WWIII.

2) The easy availability of advanced tech for space travel meant that those that survived and did not want to live on the new utopian United Earth had the option to simply leave and establish a separatist colony on some other world.

I've long believed that effective space travel and the discovery of habitable worlds might be the key to world peace. It would allow those that really can't stand the idea of a multi ethnic, secular, egalitarian society to strike out on their own. In essence it gives us the option of getting away from each other.

I actually agree with that to some extent. In the context of what is shown in ST it would be possible for there to be racially, ethnically, religiously or ideologically based colonies. Perhaps a very large number of them. It would be interesting to see alot more of that in future stories.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

If you don't like a TV show with optimistic and/or utopic views for society in the future, then why not just dislike it and watch something else? Like you do with every other show you don't like for various reasons?

You know, there's probably an interesting show to be made about life in a futuristic utopia, but STAR TREK isn't it.

As I keep pointing out, STAR TREK was not essentially about life in an "utopian" Federation, it was about exploration and adventure on the far frontier, where danger, disease, and conflict were still very much part of the package. Last time I checked, the opening spiel did not go like this:

"Earth, far from now. This is the world of the 23rd Century, where peace and progress reign supreme and humanity is free to achieve its full potential. Its mission: to forge a better future throughout the United Federation of Planets!"

Again, that could be an interesting show, but that's not what TOS--or even the later shows--were really all about. IMHO.

Actually I think such a tv series would be boring. I mean if all the problems are solved and everyone gets along what exactly is going to drive the stories?

but the vast majority of the population have managed to free themselves of such superstition.

Yeah, that probably isn't going to ever happen since there are a lot of different religons in the world that have existed for a very long time and probably got through way more belief challenges than just aliens showing up one day.

 

[BillJ]

Also, I never watched Star Trek because of any 'Utopian Vision'. I watched it because I wanted to be like Captain Kirk. I wanted to have sex with alien woman that were dressed by William Ware Theiss, I wanted to have adventures out in space and beat the hell out of bad guys and win every single time, and I wanted to have friends like Spock and Bones.

I'm 42 and I still want to be like Captain Kirk!

 

[Greg Cox]

Federation? Not important in the slightest. Exists merely to legitimize Starfleet.

In fact, how long was it in TOS before they decided they were working for a Federation? In a lot of episodes they're still just working for "Earth."

Good point. That was "A Taste of Armageddon," I think. More than twenty episodes into the series.

 

[The Old Mixer]

"no mourning lost relatives"

Huh?

TNG, "The Bonding"

I think you're misinterpreting/misrepresenting that episode. As I recall, Counsellor Troi wanted the boy to healthily express and deal with his grief, but the alien standing in for his mother was preventing him from doing that.

The entire episode was about dealing with loss, rather than denying it.

 

[The Wormhole]

Federation? Not important in the slightest. Exists merely to legitimize Starfleet.

In fact, how long was it in TOS before they decided they were working for a Federation? In a lot of episodes they're still just working for "Earth."

Good point. That was "A Taste of Armageddon," I think. More than twenty episodes into the series.

Arena is in fact the first episode to mention the Federation, and that's episode 18, both in production and airdate order.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Federation? Not important in the slightest. Exists merely to legitimize Starfleet.

In fact, how long was it in TOS before they decided they were working for a Federation? In a lot of episodes they're still just working for "Earth."

According to wiki, it was in the 23rd episode, A Taste of Armageddon. So pretty deep into the First Season.

 

[Greg Cox]

In fact, how long was it in TOS before they decided they were working for a Federation? In a lot of episodes they're still just working for "Earth."

Good point. That was "A Taste of Armageddon," I think. More than twenty episodes into the series.

Arena is in fact the first episode to mention the Federation, and that's episode 18, both in production and airdate order.

I think "Arena" mentions "the Federation," but "Armageddon" is the first to name it the United Federation of Planets.

 

[The Wormhole]

Good point. That was "A Taste of Armageddon," I think. More than twenty episodes into the series.

Arena is in fact the first episode to mention the Federation, and that's episode 18, both in production and airdate order.

I think "Arena" mentions "the Federation," but "Armageddon" is the first to name it the United Federation of Planets.

Ah, well, if you want to look at it that way, then yes, A Taste of Armageddon. But I'm still going to consider Arena to be the first mention of the Federation.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I prefer the Star Trek world of the 23rd century over the 24th.

This. The stuff about 'evolved' humanity in TNG sounded like something from a creepy cult (especially in light of DS9 showing it to be complete BS), and the way the crew looked down on others was deplorable.

I second this, and agree with T'Girl that Picard's interpretation of the Prime Directive is cold and condescending. The "evolved humanity" stuff smacks of privilege. Quark nailed it when he says how humans would revert back to infighting and self-preservation at the expense of others should they lose the security of always-available food and shelter should their technology fail for whatever reason, which is something Picard would never admit.

OH agree with all of you here.. and I love that Quark commentary, so true. We see plenty of examples of that too it's just not in the hermetically sealed sanitized and be-uniformed starfleet compounds/ships. The people blathering all the propaganda come across as naive if they are younger but the only conclusion I can come to when it is a man of Picard's years and standing is that he truly expects all societies to on the road to the Federation's version of rightness. SO then you have the condescension at best and imperialism at worst.

I hate the feeling in modern Trek that so much has been erased. Religions. Graffiti. Beach bums.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

but the vast majority of the population have managed to free themselves of such superstition.

Yeah, that probably isn't going to ever happen since there are a lot of different religons in the world that have existed for a very long time and probably got through way more belief challenges than just aliens showing up one day.

IMHO, it should be understandable why I shouldn't enjoy terms like "atheist Earth". That implies that everyone on Earth has abandoned religion, and of course that's not going to happen - it wouldn't, unless everyone was MADE to abandon it, and I would think no one would want that. Besides, isn't it enough what we've got now, in that regard? I live in the US, and we don't have an official state religion or anything like that. We have plenty of freedom of religion right here, and also freedom from it. Why should anyone want to completely erase it? Why is my freedom OF religion such a threat to those who want freedom FROM it?

Of course it's a fine thing to want freedom, but The GoodStuff, if you're going to insult people of faith by calling their religion "superstition", that is rather telling, I think. Besides, if I'm not allowed to worship with other people, then I really don't have freedom of religion, do I?

It reminds me of that early episode of Babylon 5 where various alien concepts of religion are demonstrated. The last one is Earth's, and the scene just involves the other ambassadors being led into a room where there's like a hundred different people, each of which is a representative of a different religion. As much as I normally couldn't stand B5, that was one scene I did appreciate.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

What annoyed me about that scene was it did the whole "aliens have only one religion per planet, just like they have only one haircut per planet!" deal.

 

[T'Girl]

My interpretation, is that of course you would be allowed to practice your religion if you so wish....but the vast majority of the population have managed to free themselves of such superstition.

Fair enough, we just have different beliefs.

Federation? Not important in the slightest. Exists merely to legitimize Starfleet.

And it did seem that it was less the Federation (with includes Earth), and more Earth (which has a attachment to the Federation).

In fact, how long was it in TOS before they decided they were working for a Federation? In a lot of episodes they're still just working for "Earth."

Good point. That was "A Taste of Armageddon," I think. More than twenty episodes into the series.

And as late as Justice in the first season of TNG the Enterprise Dee as establishing a Earth colony.

Arena is in fact the first episode to mention the Federation, and that's episode 18, both in production and airdate order.

Long after the creation of the Federation on the show the Enterprise was still being said to be "from Earth" (Encounter at Farpoint).

The United Earth Space Probe Agency was created after the Federation was (on the show).

 

[Sci]

Are Game of Thrones fans believers in the bold vision of a feudal society fighting endless wars of succession? Do Walking Dead fans live for the day when they can be the last survivors of a zombie apocalypse? Why should Star Trek fans be any different?

Well, the difference is that Game of Thrones and The Walking Dead are not implicitly advocating for their respective settings' political systems the way Star Trek is. Sure, at its best, this is a tertiary concern after telling a good story with compelling characters -- but it's still part of the subtext of the show.

For my money, I love the fact that Star Trek is the story of an implicitly leftist, democratic socialist future for humanity -- after telling a good story, of course. I think early TNG took the utopianism too far, and that Picard and company often seemed condescending -- but I still love that this is a story about a world that's fundamentally different and fundamentally better than our own.

 

[Nightdiamond]

but the vast majority of the population have managed to free themselves of such superstition.

Yeah, that probably isn't going to ever happen since there are a lot of different religons in the world that have existed for a very long time and probably got through way more belief challenges than just aliens showing up one day.

I think Trek strongly implies that after developing technology and solutions that solved hunger and medical problems, people in large numbers abandoned the need for religion-as if to say it failed to solve those problems.


Even 23rd century TOS implied that humans lived in an utopia. There were 'magical' food dispensers that dispensed what you asks for in seconds.

Kirk and others suggested that people in his time didn't use money, suggesting no poverty and all needs are provided for.

Uhura said something about people no longer being bothered or fearful of words anymore.

If you were to compare Trek's description of 23-24th century human society, with what you would find in a religious pamplet, it would amazingly similar.

 

[T'Girl]

I think Trek strongly implies that after developing technology and solutions that solved hunger and medical problems, people in large numbers abandoned the need for religion-as if to say it failed to solve those problems.

Human religion doesn't come up in most episodes, although there are some examples of it. And nowhere (that I can remember) was there a mention of Humanity abandoning any religion.

 

[JarodRussell]

If you don't like a TV show with optimistic and/or utopic views for society in the future, then why not just dislike it and watch something else? Like you do with every other show you don't like for various reasons?

You know, there's probably an interesting show to be made about life in a futuristic utopia, but STAR TREK isn't it.

As I keep pointing out, STAR TREK was not essentially about life in an "utopian" Federation, it was about exploration and adventure on the far frontier, where danger, disease, and conflict were still very much part of the package. Last time I checked, the opening spiel did not go like this:

"Earth, far from now. This is the world of the 23rd Century, where peace and progress reign supreme and humanity is free to achieve its full potential. Its mission: to forge a better future throughout the United Federation of Planets!"

Again, that could be an interesting show, but that's not what TOS--or even the later shows--were really all about. IMHO.

That wasn't my point. Star Trek was about a crew at the frontier of known space, where there would be adventures, action, crime, wars, diseases, etc... . But BACK HOME they had a paradise. Even in TOS.

 

[SPCTRE]

What annoyed me about that scene was it did the whole "aliens have only one religion per planet, just like they have only one haircut per planet!" deal.

QFT