Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

[Smellmet]

If they'd have just thrown more money at the films and created a story arc that ran through them things would have been so different. I'm in the middle of a rewatch of these movies and it's just so apparent what a wasted opportunity they all were, it's depressing. I do think Nemesis was a reasonable effort compared to the others at least in terms of action, sets and visual effects though - If it Insurrection never happened and it was released in it's place I think it would have done far better at the box office and would have been a great follow up to the overrated First Contact

 

[Mr Light]

<<But Nemesis wasn't a proper finale of Berman's Star Trek story. >>

Yes, that was "These Are These Voyages"!

 

[Lance]

I'd say TNG got it's proper finale in "All Good Things" ...they just kept going, though.

The problem with AGT as a finale is that, while it's a belter of an episode to end the seven year run on, it's what we call an "open-ended finale". Because they knew they were going on to do movies straight afterwards, it had to be that way.

They could wrap up the show, but they could not provide closure to the show. If that makes any sense?

But on reflection, this meant that the TNG movies were somewhat directionless. There wasn't anywhere else left to go with those characters, but they opted to limp on every few years doing new adventures with them anyway, retrospectively ruining the effect of AGT as a result.

The TOS movies still had places to go, because that show got cancelled and they all came back to the characters ten years later or whatever, meaning we could explore new aspects of all these people and how they interacted with each other.

By contrast, the TNG movies were always just some additional adventures taking place right after the series ended. Picking up right where AGT left off. They had no wriggle room left to do anything interesting with the characters or their setting, apart from cosmetic details like giving Data emotions (which was quickly rescinded anyway), or blowing up the ship and replacing it with a new one (which didn't make a squat of difference to the actual stories).

One thing I will say for NEM is that it at least does have pretensions towards trying to provide some sort of closure on TNG in a way that even AGT didn't. Even though a lot of that material was sadly left on the cutting room floor.

 

[Hober Mallow]

I didn't need any closure. AGT wrapped TNG up perfectly.

 

[Dukhat]

The problem with AGT as a finale is that, while it's a belter of an episode to end the seven year run on, it's what we call an "open-ended finale". Because they knew they were going on to do movies straight afterwards, it had to be that way.

They could wrap up the show, but they could not provide closure to the show. If that makes any sense?

Yes, it does. If, say, the decision was made to make an 8th season instead of the movies, then they could have taken an entire year to provide closure for the crew. We could have seen Picard and Beverly finally get together. They could have retired and gotten married, while Riker would eventually have gotten the command of the Enterprise-D he'd always wanted for the last 7 years. He and Deanna could have gotten hitched along with the Picards. I could also see Data getting a command of his own (maybe a Starfleet Corp of Engineers ship) and taking Geordi with him as his first officer. And finally we could have seen Worf return to the Klingon homeworld as a council member or something.

Instead, we got eight collective hours of the Stewart and Spiner Show, with little to no character development for anyone else.

 

[Commishsleer]

WORF: But didn't they say that the Remans see really well in the dark and can't stand bright lights? Why don't we crank up the lights to fullbright and blind 'em?
RIKER: Shut up and just try to look dramatic.

It's funny how a film went out of it's way to establish the Remans from hating bright lights and absolutely no payoff whatsoever. If you watch a film like Back to the Future, almost everything that is given screen time is a set up to a pay off, even building signs. These are the bad guys who upon first meeting them give us a weakness to exploit and they don't go anywhere with it.

Perhaps they were trying to make Riker look more awesome by defeating them in the dark.

I get it that Riker had to go there himself to avenge his woman but I was also wondering where were the rest of the crew. Maybe Riker chucked an early Kirk and insisted I'll deal with these intruders myself as they wronged me personally. Even if thats the case I don't think its Riker's style to endanger the ship like that.
Or maybe the rest of the crew were looking somewhere else. Was it explained why they just couldn't transport the intruders out?

 

[The Old Mixer]

Riker had to go alone because the secret of the bottomless pit on the lowest deck of the ship is highly classified....

 

[gottacook]

The problem with AGT as a finale is that, while it's a belter of an episode to end the seven year run on, it's what we call an "open-ended finale". Because they knew they were going on to do movies straight afterwards, it had to be that way.

They could wrap up the show, but they could not provide closure to the show. If that makes any sense?

Yes, it does. If, say, the decision was made to make an 8th season instead of the movies, then they could have taken an entire year to provide closure for the crew. We could have seen Picard and Beverly finally get together. They could have retired and gotten married, while Riker would eventually have gotten the command of the Enterprise-D he'd always wanted for the last 7 years. He and Deanna could have gotten hitched along with the Picards. I could also see Data getting a command of his own (maybe a Starfleet Corp of Engineers ship) and taking Geordi with him as his first officer. And finally we could have seen Worf return to the Klingon homeworld as a council member or something.

Instead, we got eight collective hours of the Stewart and Spiner Show, with little to no character development for anyone else.

So the question of this thread - which for the most part has been interpreted as "Could Nemesis ever have been any good?" - might better be regarded as "Could any final TNG feature film have been considered a decent conclusion to the series of films featuring that cast?" - that is, accorded the same value that most fans give Undiscovered Country as an original-cast finale.

To which my answer is: Well, no. If the movies were going to be (contractually, in advance, as they surely were) the Stewart & Spiner Show, then any possible final TNG-cast film - including films never made, or better edits of films that were released - would have been unsatisfactory. (By contrast, Undiscovered Country was surely not the Kirk & Spock Show.)

 

[USS Firefly]

That's one of the reason why Undiscovered Country was a good movie because everyone has his moment to shine

 

[2takesfrakes]

I was also wondering where were the rest of the crew. Maybe Riker chucked an early Kirk and insisted I'll deal with these intruders myself as they wronged me personally. Even if thats the case I don't think its Riker's style to endanger the ship like that.
Or maybe the rest of the crew were looking somewhere else. Was it explained why they just couldn't transport the intruders out?

NEMESIS didn't mention the intruders outside of their existance and Picard's order to Riker to go handle it. This movie doesn't go on to explain much of anything it introduces, which is some of the laziest writing I've ever encountered in a movie.

Shinzon doesn't explain the source of Picard's DNA he came from. YES, I know that Shinzon states that the Romulans "somehow" got a hold of it, inferring that he doesn't know. But that's more John Logan's fault than Shinzon's, let's face it. Also, B-4's origins are not explained. In fact, "we" can't even be certain that B-4 and Data were even created by the same man. Everything stated about B-4's likely beginings is pure speculation, on the part of the crew. What's more, Shinzon does not explain how he found a replica of his own replica's favourite android. Nor does Picard probe Shinzon further on this, at all. This script steadfastly refuses to explain anything about itself ...

 

[AgentCoop]

I'm sorry, I love The Undiscovered Country as much as anyone, but I can't really see how it's not The Kirk, Spock & McCoy Show. Sulu gets a little more screentime than usual, but it's still pretty much the Big Three.

 

[Lucky]

I thought it was pretty good. It is my second favorite of the TNG films.

 

[The Old Mixer]

It is my second favorite of the TNG films.

Even so, that's damning it with faint praise.

 

[sovereign]

It shouldn't be. It was not the best Trek film, but I think it was better than the last two movies. Many Star Trek fans are content to agree with what is popular with the mainstream. Honestly, if we got a better TNG finale would we really care?

 

[Nebusj]

That's one of the reason why Undiscovered Country was a good movie because everyone has his moment to shine

Mind, everybody gets not just a chance to be the hero but also to have a comic scene to themselves in The Final Frontier but its status as a good movie is still somewhat controversial.

 

[mendelin]

I’m trying to understand, why people thought "Nemesis" was the last TNG-movie. Was it an official Paramount statement before premiere?

"Undiscovered Country" was indeed the last TOS-movie due to the death of Roddenberry. (but "Generations" is all messed up)

And what about "Nemesis"? Was there any evidence that "Nemesis" intended to be final chord of 24th century Star Trek story?

 

[gottacook]

I’m trying to understand, why people thought "Nemesis" was the last TNG-movie. Was it an official Paramount statement before premiere?

What about the advertising (including pre-release) tag line, "A Generation's Final Journey Begins"? Which is stupid and incoherent, admittedly, but does include the word "Final."

 

[mendelin]

What about the advertising (including pre-release) tag line, "A Generation's Final Journey Begins"? Which is stupid and incoherent, admittedly, but does include the word "Final."

"A Generation's Final Journey Begins" - it sounds like the first part of an epic trilogy!

 

[AgentCoop]

^I'd have to agree with this. I think they were hedging their bets. There are clearly parts of Nemesis that plant seeds for possible future films. I think they were trying to make a movie that could serve as a finale if it did poorly, but that they could make a sequel to if it did well.

 

[Greg Cox]

"Undiscovered Country" was indeed the last TOS-movie due to the death of Roddenberry. (but "Generations" is all messed up)

Ending the TOS movies had nothing to do with Roddenberry's death. He hadn't been in charge of the movies for nearly a decade at that point, so it wasn't like they couldn't make TOS movies without him.

More likely, it was simply Paramount's recognition that the original crew was not getting any younger, and TNG was a proven hit, so it was probably time to start thinking about TNG movies . . . .