Was the Abramsverse already an alternate universe?

[Crazy Eddie]

A parallel universe, by definition, exists in parallel to the prime universe of the earlier releases. It doesn't blow anything to smithereens

Of course it doesn't.

THE NARADA DID THAT.

Try to keep up.

Anyway, it's a moot point. The Abramsverse isn't going to lead to any recognizable version of TOS or TNG -- especially if you accept the comic series, now the Romulans glassed half of Qo'nos -- so if you want to stick to the Prime Universe you're gonna have to start playing Star Trek Online.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Hell, we still haven't figured out how to reconcile the Suliban and Romulan cloaking devices from Season 1 with the rest of TOS.

Ignore Spock's line that "invisibility is theoretically possible" and all is good.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Also try to take into account what the novels suggest: that in ENT's time, the cloaking device was untested, unstable (notice how the Romulan ship in "Minefield" kept cloaking and decloaking at random moments?) and used so much power that ships using it would destroy themselves.

 

[E-DUB]

Given that there is a shortage of actual experimental data regarding the effects of time travel, everybody needs to calm down. Part of all this depends on what you believe. If you believe that changes to the timeline only propagate forward, you'll believe one thing. If you believe that they can propagate backward as well, you'll believe another.

A thought experiment, postulate that one of the killed crew members of the Kelvin was a direct ancestor of Noonien Soong. No Soong means no Data will ever be built. So would killing someone centuries later eliminate his head from the cave under San Francisco centuries earlier.

Bottom line, the ST timeline has been so altered by anything from a random bum phasering himself out of existence to the premature computer revolution caused by Henry Starling to the events in "Enterprise".

Personally, I think that the "original" timeline was overwritten, but it doesn't really matter because there would be another parallel timeline, virtually identical to it which wasn't. In fact, the "many worlds" theory would require it. So relax, you're all right. It just depends on which univers you're looking at.

 

[YellowSubmarine]

If the universes didn't split when the Kremin did their first temporal incursion after nuJaneway failed to prevent it... And if didn't split up when nuKirk failed to show up during the Serpeidon Middle Ages... And if they didn't split when Data's head failed to appear under San Francisco... Then the timeline got in real trouble when George and Gracie got hunted down by the Norwegians.

Not only The Voyage Home never happened, failing to sway public opinion on whaling, but the broke Norwegians never discovered The Thing in Antarctica. If The Thing is still there, how do we know the Borg don't dig it up in ENT: Regeneration, spoiling everything?

(Also without nuQuark playing with kemocite, Roswell never happens, and Katherine Heigl never stars in Grey's Anatomy... You can't recover a timeline that much out of sync without the Doctor.)

 

[M'Sharak]

Try to keep up.

Try to avoid the use of digs such as "Try to keep up."

 

[Set Harth]

Of course it doesn't.

THE NARADA DID THAT.

Try to keep up.

Semantics aside, this is still totally false. What did the Narada "blow to smithereens"? Some ships. A planet. Not "the entire continuity" ( or "the normal continuity" or whatever other name it's going by these days ). I don't think those missiles are quite powerful enough to blow an entire continuity away. In any event it makes exactly zero sense to assert that the time travelers "blew the entire continuity to smithereens" by simply traveling back in time, even if the writers are carefully ignored as usual. Besides, how is such a viewpoint capable of handling such things as the coexistence of the Mirror Universe with the Prime?

The Abramsverse isn't going to lead to any recognizable version of TOS or TNG

And, once again, it was never expected to. Thus, it is not especially meaningful to point this out.

Parallel universe, right?

 

[T'Girl]

The Defiant that shows up in "In A Mirror Darkly" is the same as the one from "the Tholian Web". The insignia is irrelevant.

As a prime indicator that the two episode feature two completely different Defiants, it is entirely relevant.

Plus, there is the Gorn in "Darkly."

 

[BillJ]

Plus, there is the Gorn in "Darkly."

And? It just means the Tholians encountered them before humans. There's nothing to indicate it didn't happen the same way in the Prime timeline.

 

[Nerys Myk]

The Defiant that shows up in "In A Mirror Darkly" is the same as the one from "the Tholian Web". The insignia is irrelevant.

As a prime indicator that the two episode feature two completely different Defiants, it is entirely relevant.

Plus, there is the Gorn in "Darkly."

Its a prime indicator that the people making "Mirror" thought they were correcting an error made in "Web", nothing more.

As I said, claiming "different universe" based on creative decisions by the production team is fanthink. The professionals said it's the same ship. Therefore is it.

 

[Jerikka Dawn]

I say NuKirk should travel back to 1800s San Francisco, grab Data's head, go forward to 1990s San Francisco and hitch a ride back with the PrimeTOS crew on the Klingon ship, and give the head to PrimeSpock with explicit instructions that it be handed to Lt. Castillo aboard the Enterprise-C with instructions for him to give it to WarTimelineTasha so that she can give it to PrimeSela.

It's the only way to be sure if we are to be done with that damn head.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

^ Also try to take into account what the novels suggest: that in ENT's time, the cloaking device was untested, unstable (notice how the Romulan ship in "Minefield" kept uncloaking and decloaking at random moments?) and used so much power that ships using it would destroy themselves.

That doesn't explain the Suliban or the Xyrillians, though, the latter of which would have provided that technology to the Klingons through their various contacts (of course, I've theorized that the Klingons probably exterminated the Xyrillians over their inherently parasitic nature). It also doesn't explain the fact that the entire Romulan minefield was also cloaked.

More to the point, Starfleet had access to a Suliban cloaking device for several months, and Trip even accidentally cloaked his own hand. Inasmuch as Starfleet's experiences with alien technology, they would have developed cloaking technology before they developed shields.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I don't think those missiles are quite powerful enough to blow an entire continuity away.

You'd be surprised. Continuity is a delicate thing. Just ask Daniels.

Besides, how is such a viewpoint capable of handling such things as the coexistence of the Mirror Universe with the Prime?

The simple fact that mirror universe isn't continuous with the prime universe. It's PARALLEL to it, which means they do not actually intersect, and historical events in one universe do not affect the other.

What's interesting is that the Mirror Universe is VERY similar to the Prime Universe in that the same people and locations can be found in both universes and they otherwise lead fairly similar lives. There's Good Kirk and Evil Kirk; there's good Sulu and Evil Sulu; in the 24th century Evil Kira is a Bajoran despot running a slave labor camp and Worf is a Klingon warlord with a humongous battleship. So at least by trek rules, a parallel universe can run side by side with another universe in a lot of interesting ways even if the two universes never directly influence one another.

Which means the Abramsverse probably would have turned out HISTORICALLY identical to the TOS universe if not for Nero's arrival; Enterprise would be three times as large and Number One would look like Ashley Judd, but Christopher Pike (whose hair color has changed in this timeline) still would have visited Talos-IV, still would have met Vina, still would have gotten irradiated and confined to a bleeping wheelchair until NuKirk and NuSpock took him back to Talos-IV.

And somewhere out there in the multiverse is apparently a version of reality where Winona Kirk had a daughter instead of a son...

And, once again, it was never expected to.

It was until Nero showed up, apparently.

Although, in light of the many time travel events that could not have logically happened in the Abramsverse, I'm still strongly of the opinion that Nero's actions affected the timeline in BOTH directions, past and future. The same thing happened when the Enterprise-C arrived in the -D's era: Captain Garret arrived in a future in which the Klingons and the Federation had been a war for decades. In the same way, Nero's actions would/should have created a timeline where the Borg never invaded 21st century Earth, Gary Seven never intervened in the militarization of space, and Zephram Cochrane didn't need anyone's help on his first warp flight.

 

[F. King Daniel]

No effects went backwards in "Yesterday's Enterprise" - the changes only occur from the point the Enterprise-C vanishes from Narendra III. One could even argue that "Yesterday's Enterprise" created the TNG timeline in much the same way Spock and Nero did the STXI one.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

No effects went backwards in "Yesterday's Enterprise" - the changes only occur from the point the Enterprise-C vanishes from Narendra III.

Not from Picard's perspective, though. We see the timeline is entirely normal until the moment the -C comes through the hole and then switches when it arrives. So it didn't create an parallel universe, it created changes to the timeline within its OWN universe.

We learned that trick from the Prophets that a cause doesn't always precede its effect. Which is why actions taken by the Enterprise-D in 2267 can affect the love life of a Romulan general in 2246.

One could even argue that "Yesterday's Enterprise" created the TNG timeline in much the same way Spock and Nero did the STXI one.

A good point, in which case Yesterday's Enterprise also would have affected the past through Picard's subsequent time travel adventures.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Well, I disagree with your assumption that disruptions in the present negate interference from further into the future. Read the novel DTI: Watching the Clock or read the annotations here. It covers every Trek time travel and why many of them happened differently.

 

[Set Harth]

The simple fact that mirror universe isn't continuous with the prime universe.

See, this is where you play word games with "continuous" as though it's relevant to the contextually applicable meaning of "continuity". It's still not working.

It's PARALLEL to it

Yes, Star Trek is a franchise in which parallel universes coexist in the same continuity.

which means they do not actually intersect, and historical events in one universe do not affect the other.

Really? I think you need to watch the Mirror Universe episodes again. ( Besides, if you're looking for points of "intersection" with respect to the Abramsverse, there's 2233. )

even if the two universes never directly influence one another.

Since the Abramsverse was created through a time travel event originating in the Prime universe, it would be disingenuous to say that the Abramsverse was never influenced by the Prime.

Which means the Abramsverse probably would have turned out HISTORICALLY identical to the TOS universe if not for Nero's arrival;

Uh... you think?

What's with the "probably"? It's like you're failing to grasp the basic premise. The new timeline was created by Nero's arrival. Before that, it was identical to the Prime, because Nero went into the past of the Prime. ( This was, notably, exactly what was requested: a result which was predictable, unlike the idea that Spock and Nero ended up in a preexistent alternate timeline for no particular reason. )

It was until Nero showed up, apparently.

That's because before Nero showed up it wasn't an alternate timeline; it was just the Prime.

 

[T'Girl]

Plus, there is the Gorn in "Darkly."

And? It just means the Tholians encountered them before humans. There's nothing to indicate it didn't happen the same way in the Prime timeline.

I was referring to the two different types of creatures called "Gorn."

Not just a case of two different actor playing the same role, or a fairly subtle change, the two "Gorns' are radically different creatures.

As a prime indicator that the two episode feature two completely different Defiants, it is entirely relevant.

Its a prime indicator that the people making "Mirror" thought they were correcting an error made in "Web", nothing more.

What "error" was that?"

The Original Series depicted on a number of episode that the delta was the standard insignia for the majority of Starfleet officers and crew, except for a few high ranking officers (and a single doctor).

The precedent was established decades prior to "Darkly." The alternate Defiant was in fact a different ship from the Defiant in "Web." The two different insignias are prime evidence of this.

The professionals said it's the same ship. Therefore is it.

No, if that was their intent, that intent did not make it's way on to the screen.

It's what is on screen, and in the sound track,that counts, and not the producers "intent."

 

[BillJ]

The Original Series depicted on a number of episode that the delta was the standard insignia for the majority of Starfleet officers and crew, except for a few high ranking officers (and a single doctor).

Well, there's the Exeter from "The Omega Glory".

The precedent was established decades prior to "Darkly." The alternate Defiant was in fact a different ship from the Defiant in "Web." The two different insignias are prime evidence of this.

You're over reaching to try and win a point.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

The simple fact that mirror universe isn't continuous with the prime universe.

See, this is where you play word games with "continuous" as though it's relevant to the contextually applicable meaning of "continuity"

Seeing how you have your own private definition of "continuity" I'm not sure what to tell you.

Since the Abramsverse was created through a time travel event originating in the Prime universe, it would be disingenuous to say that the Abramsverse was never influenced by the Prime.

Been over this before. Nero's effect on the Abramsverse happens while he is already part of the Abramsverse. His timeline in the prime universe actually ends before he does anything that affects the alternate.

What's with the "probably"?

Because we still don't know for sure to what extent the universe IS the result of Nero's arrival or if it was pre-existing before he got there. All we have is NuSpock's barely-informed supposition (in the exact same conversation where he was implying the Romulans had come from the future deliberately).

That's because before Nero showed up it wasn't an alternate timeline; it was just the Prime.

We don't know that for sure. More importantly, Mike Johnson doesn't think so either.