Starfleet Starship Insignia was all supposed to be the same?

[BillJ]

So in order to prove that the M-5 can withstand the combined force of four starships, they'd choose the task force commander to be a member of the administrative branch?!?

I'd think to prove how well the M-5 were able to handle an overwhelming attack force, Starfleet would have chosen a starship commander with sufficient experience, hence Wesley.

For all we know Lexington might be the flagship of Starfleet (implied by the unique, taller command chair) and therefore its personnel and commanding officer (Wesley) wears the starburst / flower insignia of Starfleet.

Bob

Kirk was also part of the administrative branch when he was Starfleet Chief of Operations. Just because one is currently part of the administrative branch doesn't mean they lack starship experience.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Kirk was also part of the administrative branch when he was Starfleet Chief of Operations. Just because one is currently part of the administrative branch doesn't mean they lack starship experience.

Yep. Wesley could easily have been the captain of his own starship back in the day, before he got promoted. After all, besides Kirk, Commodore Stone was, too.

 

[Robert Comsol]

From "The Doomsday Machine":

KIRK: Matt. Matt, listen to me. You can't throw your life away like this. Matt, you're a starship commander. That makes you a valuable commodity.

From "The Ultimate Computer":

SPOCK: Commodore Wesley is a dedicated commander. I should regret serving aboard the instrument of his death.

Spock didn't say "dedicated officer" but "dedicated commander" which could be the same context as in "The Doomsday Machine". i.e. "[starship] commander" (since a commodore obviously is not just a starship captain but in both cases the commander of a starship).

It's also interesting that the reply to Wesley's request for permission to destroy the Enterprise is not asking Commodore Wesley for acknowledgement but "Lexington".

IIRC the Star Trek 9 novelization of James Blish featured the early script for "The Ultimate Computer". In that case there is probably information useful for this debate?

Bob

 

[Warped9]

Well, at the risk of fanning the flames to the same old debate cycle again, my take was that Wesley was actually attached to the same part of the service as Stone, Mendez, and Miss Piper, IOW that he came down from Starfleet Command just to lead the task force against the M-5.

I personally think, with no canon to back me up, that Wesley was from Starfleet Command and that M-5 was his "baby". I think its failure and the loss of life because of it was what drove him from the service and why we see him as the governor of the Mantilles colony in TAS.

Oooo, I rather like that.

 

[BillJ]

Well, at the risk of fanning the flames to the same old debate cycle again, my take was that Wesley was actually attached to the same part of the service as Stone, Mendez, and Miss Piper, IOW that he came down from Starfleet Command just to lead the task force against the M-5.

I personally think, with no canon to back me up, that Wesley was from Starfleet Command and that M-5 was his "baby". I think its failure and the loss of life because of it was what drove him from the service and why we see him as the governor of the Mantilles colony in TAS.

Oooo, I rather like that.

Thanks.

It's up to personal interpretation, but I do think it makes sense in context of the two times we see the character.

My thinking: If he was just a fellow starship commander, why would he be so gung-ho for these trials? He would be eliminating his own occupation.

 

[Robert Comsol]

My thinking: If he was just a fellow starship commander, why would he be so gung-ho for these trials? He would be eliminating his own occupation.

Good point! He is not just a fellow starship captain but a commodore and older than Kirk, so his days of commanding a starship may be over soon. So he looks forward to a promotion to admiral and contributing to "a revolution in space technology as great as warp drive" may be his ticket.

Apparently, him and James Kirk know each other well enough to almost call each other friends, yet this doesn't prevent Wesley from being outright mean to Kirk when he called him "Captain Dunsel", especially since Kirk hadn't volunteered for these tests. It's almost like "The M-5 is going to end your career but I don't mind."

For all we know Wesley is looking forward to orchestrate a fleet of M-5 controlled starships and his familiarity with the system puts him on the top of the promotion list.

It's interesting that he never considers that M-5 may have lost its marbles. I'd say that as a starship commander he should have taken that possibility into account but failure to do (and report) so may have been an issue in a hearing. And what about this "I'm going to take a chance he's not just laying a trap"? Was he hoping he could save the Enterprise or was he mostly interested to see Dr. Daystrom and the M-5 survive intact?

I can imagine that Wesley had to listen to the same stuff as Kirk did in "Court-Martial":

"I'm thinking of the service. I won't have it smeared. Either you accept a permanent ground assignment, or the whole disciplinary weight of Starfleet command is going to light right on your neck."

Looks to me that Wesley chose exile on Mantilles...

Bob

 

[CorporalCaptain]

It mentions "Charlie X," but not "The Doomsday Machine."

TO: Bill Theiss

FROM: Bob Justman

SUBJECT: STARSHIP EMBLEMS

DATE: December 18, 1967

Whilst sitting in Dailies today, it was noticed that a Starship Captain (from another Starship) was wearing an emblem unfamiliar to yours truly. I have checked the occurences out with Mr. Roddenberry, who has reassured me that all Starship personnel wear the Starship emblem that we have established for our Enterprise Crew Members to wear.

Doubtless this situation has arisen due to the fact that a different Starship emblem was used last season on “CHARLIE X”. However, the personnel of that other ship in that show were the equivalent of merchant marine or freighter personnel — and therefore not entitled to bear this proud insignia on their individual and collective breasts.

Please do not do anything to correct this understandable mistake in the present episode. However, should we have Starfleet personnel in any other episodes, please make certain that they were the proper emblem.

Under penalty of death!

Signed this 18th day of December, in the year of our Lord, 1967, by

ROBERT H. JUSTMAN

Chief Inquisitor



CC: Gene Roddenberry

John M. Lucas

D.C. Fontana

Gregg Peters

RHJ:sts

P.S. A carven “I’m sorry!” will be sufficient.

R.H.J.

Lest the point be lost in the shuffle discussing starship emblems, IMO this memo doesn't explain why Kirk isn't wearing the flower insignia at the beginning of TMP, before he gets command of the Enterprise back.

What's even more incongruous is that the Epsilon IX station personnel wear a "telecommunications" emblem, so its not like Starfleet was all under a single kind of emblem.

 

[Shawnster]

I love talking about Star Trek as much as the next guy, but it never ceases to amaze me what convolutions ST fans will go through to explain a continuity error.

That's really interesting, but this isn't your average continuity error. Whatever this is, error or retcon, it crosses multiple episodes. As discrepancies go, this is one of the whoppers.

In the art of mental gymnastics, some of us are more flexible than others.

 

[Robert Comsol]

Lest the point be lost in the shuffle discussing starship emblems, IMO this memo doesn't explain why Kirk isn't wearing the flower insignia at the beginning of TMP, before he gets command of the Enterprise back.

At the time of writing nobody knew that there was going to be TMP, but I presume you wondered, too, why that memo didn't address

• Decker's insignia in "The Doomsday Machine"
• Wesley's insignia in "The Ultimate Computer"

USS Constellation was a "starship", so the insignia of the Antares wasn't the only one of a vessel shown prior to "The Omega Glory".

(Justman didn't mention the outpost insignias from "Balance of Terror" and "Arena" nor the small starburst/flower worn by Finnegan in "Shore Leave" because that might have gotten confusing)

What's even more incongruous is that the Epsilon IX station personnel wear a "telecommunications" emblem, so its not like Starfleet was all under a single kind of emblem.

Good Point! But are you sure it's a "telecommunications" emblem?
Almost looks like these characters have already been "tagged" by V'ger and just haven't noticed that, yet.

Bob

 

[Maurice]

all Starship personnel wear the Starship emblem that we have established for our Enterprise Crew Members to wear.

Again, it's right there in the memo. Non-Starship personnel don't necessarily wear the same insignia, so starbase and comm station personnel wearing something else makes logical sense and is consistent with with we saw. Really, only Decker and the couple of guys in "The Omega Glory" are at odds with that. Finnegan was a cadet.

Now, as to why some starbase personnel might wear the arrowhead, that's a different question.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Now, as to why some starbase personnel might wear the arrowhead, that's a different question.

Regarding TMP, that's the issue, yes.

And, given that the arrowhead had apparently crept into the starbase area, so that Kirk isn't wearing a flower at first, why not also every area, including Epsilon IX as well?

 

[Christopher]

Now, as to why some starbase personnel might wear the arrowhead, that's a different question.

That's where my fleet-divisions scheme comes in handy. Although presumably by 2273 there had been an organizational rearrangement and the former UESPA emblem -- or rather, an emblem combining the UESPA arrowhead with a circle -- had become the fleetwide insignia.

 

[Robert Comsol]

Now, as to why some starbase personnel might wear the arrowhead, that's a different question.

Possible, conjectural answers:

• From Bob Justman's point of view: Commodore Mendez is the Starbase 11 commander-in-chief and as such he has several secretaries: Miss Piper (with the flower insignia) and a secretary taking care of issues concerning starships exclusively, hence the delta on her uniform.
• From an in-universe point of view: The flower insignia had just been introduced in "Court-Martial", the episode before "The Menagerie" (both in production and stardate order). The delta is in the process of being phased out and replaced by the flower.

Just noticed a riddle I found interesting: Commodore Mendez aboard the Enterprise was a Talosian illusion, yet it's interesting that no one wondered at least where he got his medals on this dress uniform from.

Bob

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I suspect that that secretary or whatever with the arrowhead in "The Menagerie" was just a costuming blunder that fell through the cracks, and even if someone along the line caught it, it wasn't considered important enough to fix and/or they decided no viewer would notice or care.

 

[Maurice]

Or, the ship's laundry just makes you a uniform with all the appropriate insignia and ribbons.

We never really get to see the results of Justman's memo because it came at the tail end of Season 2 production, and the only Season 3 non-Enterprise Starfleet people we see (if I recall correctly) are the dead crew of the Defiant.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Or, the ship's laundry just makes you a uniform with all the appropriate insignia and ribbons.

Yep, this is what I always assumed.

 

[Robert Comsol]

We never really get to see the results of Justman's memo because it came at the tail end of Season 2 production, and the only Season 3 non-Enterprise Starfleet people we see (if I recall correctly) are the dead crew of the Defiant.

Actually I think that what we saw or actually didn't see in "The Tholian Web" was a straight result from this memo.

All the extras were positioned not to show the insignia (two bodies in sickbay, however, show the delta).
Either that's a compromise they agreed upon to appease Bob Justman or he just said - no more budget for new costumes...

Bob

 

[CrazyMatt]

All the extras were positioned not to show the insignia (two bodies in sickbay, however, show the delta).
Either that's a compromise they agreed upon to appease Bob Justman or he just said - no more budget for new costumes...

Bob

The latter must have played a factor... a number of the Defiant crew are seen in velour shirts, which were no longer in regular use in Season 3.

 

[Maurice]

As Justman said "no more new insignia for Starships" then there was no reason to hide anything, and the fact that we see a few bodies where the insignia is visible when they could easily have hidden it indicates there was likely no effort to hide it at all. I swear, sometimes people read too much intent into things like how bodies are laid around.

 

[Robert Comsol]

Please feel free to help yourself and check out the "Tholian Web" screencaps at Trekcore.

The one thing that is obvious, is that they carefully positioned the overwhelming majorities of extras in a fashion to hide the insignia. That's a red thread from Defiant's bridge down to sickbay and from there to "life-support" and engineering.

There are only two extras in sickbay where the delta is discernible in HD, but on a standard TV set of the 1960's it was practically impossible or difficult to see.

Since a different starship insignia had been shown in "The Omega Glory" (inspiring the infamous Justman memo), not to reveal the insignia of the Defiant was obviously a perfect solution to the issue, left for future generations to be discussed. ()

Bob