Heh, it'd be neat if everything that Sisko knew about shifts came from his Dad's restaurant.
3-Shift / 4-Shift Rotation question
- Thread starter Ethros
- Start date
Heh, it'd be neat if everything that Sisko knew about shifts came from his Dad's restaurant.
I wouldn't read too much into the 3 shift/4 shift rotation thing.
The story needed some obvious shake-up, an easy shorthand to show that Jellicoe was changing the routine aboard the Enterprise, things were gonna be done his way.
"Captain on the bridge" is an example.
Troi in uniform is another.
Removing Livingston from the Ready Room is another.
Four shift rotation is another.
Really just a point of contention to illustrate the differences between Picard and Jellicoe.
I don't think there was any real thought into Picard's 3 shift as less efficient than Jellicoe's 4 shift, or which is Star Fleet standard, etc.
But as fans, we can continue to discuss and speculate and debate.
The story needed some obvious shake-up, an easy shorthand to show that Jellicoe was changing the routine aboard the Enterprise, things were gonna be done his way.
"Captain on the bridge" is an example.
Troi in uniform is another.
Removing Livingston from the Ready Room is another.
Four shift rotation is another.
Really just a point of contention to illustrate the differences between Picard and Jellicoe.
I don't think there was any real thought into Picard's 3 shift as less efficient than Jellicoe's 4 shift, or which is Star Fleet standard, etc.
But as fans, we can continue to discuss and speculate and debate.
Um, Are you really saying that the Cardassians' setting a trap for Picard so they could torture Starfleet's defensive plans out of him and hiding warships in a nebula that would put them in position for a sneak attack was all just posturing?
I contend Jelico was a bad captain. Anything that radically altered sleep patterns would have a bad effect on readiness. Daylight savings change over takes something two weeks in real life.
Jellico changed things and the crew acted like a bunch of spoiled babies. "Commander, can you bypass Jellico and talk to Captain Picard about making Jellico be nicer to us?" Get the hell back to work, Geordi!
20 years in the navy, 14 at sea. Jellico was a better captain, and 4-section beats 3 any day. If you have 3 sections, it can be 3-on, 6-off, 4-on, 8-off, or any other combo that works. 4 section could be 3 hours on, 9 hours off, up to 6-on, 18-off. That's just your watch, mind you. Day work has to fit somewhere, too. Although on the Blue Ridge, I ran 12-on/12-off, and that was combined watch and work shift.
On the issue of Jelico and the crew: Frankly, I don't really understand the position "Jelico was entirely in the wrong. The Enterprise crew were being asked to do things that were completely unreasonable." Nor do I understand the position "The Enterprise crew were in the wrong. Jelico was entirely reasonable and in the right."
Both sides had the same problem: they were too rigid. Perhaps the Ent crew was a bit too pampered and a little too comfortable, and this made it harder for them to accept the very idea of changes - which isn't good. Starfleet officers, being trained military personnel, should not be thrown for SUCH a loop when simply asked to make changes to their routines. They still had a job to do, and it had been made clear that the mission was critical and potentially very dangerous, and moreover, that it was a military mission that would demand a higher level of tactical readiness - and less resources devoted to scientific and research concerns - then they were accustomed to. And as much as I like Riker (and used to like him in this episode), I feel they went too far (and did so much too quickly, as well) with his antagonism with Jelico. Right off the bat, he's looking like "aw geez this sucks", because Jelico... was friendly and outgoing after stepping off the transporter pad? Nothing in Jelico's introductory scene was in any way bad - there was no reason at that time for Riker to be acting like this new captain was going to just make his life miserable, yet that's what his expressions and body language (and even the background music at the end of the scene) indicate. It just went downhill from there. I see what they were going for, but they just took things too far, too fast, with Riker being obstinate and un-supportive for no reason. Jelico did make some unreasonable demands on the crew (more on that in a moment), but the episode wants us to take Riker's side in the more personal, focused antagonism that occurs between he and Jelico, yet doesn't show us very good reasons to do so.
On the other hand... Riker told Jelico, flat-out, that moving from a 3 to 4 shift rotation as quickly as Jelico wanted would lead to "significant personnel problems". Riker informs Jelico (and us) that there were significant and legitimate concerns about the shift change according to the department heads. Does that mean Jelico needs to completely back down and not make the change at all? Of course not, but he sure could have handled it better than simply saying "I don't give a shit, just do it."
Later, Geordi complains to Riker about what Jelico expects of him. Not only has he been told to realign the warp coils in two days (a previous scene established that this task alone was pushing the envelope of what was doable and would require the entire Engineering staff to work overtime), but ON TOP of that, he has to juggle all of his duty rosters due to the shift changes and "completely reroute half the power systems on this ship". And then, after being given a list of tasks that would push his department to its limits as it is with the time allotted and personnel available, he loses a third of his staff because Jelico has transferred them to security! LaForge specifically says he doesn't mind changes and doesn't mind hard work, but he isn't being given the time and personnel necessary to effect the changes or do the work. That attitude is entirely reasonable, and we can rely on Geordi's assessment of the situation regarding his department as being generally correct - after all, he's been established through 4+ years of TNG at this point to be an extremely competent chief engineer. Some - certainly not all, but some - of Jelico's demands were unreasonable, because some of them went beyond simply being hard or changing their routine, and were well into "you're nearly asking the impossible here" territory. That's what LaForge is telling Riker, and that's what that scene is telling us. Jelico can hardly be held blameless for the troubles that went on during this episode.
Both Jelico and the crew could have handled the transition better, and the entire situation also wasn't helped by the abruptness of it all, the fact that Picard wasn't just being reassigned but also sent on a clandestine and probably dangerous mission he couldn't tell anyone about, and the fact that the Ent was sent on its own volatile, dangerous mission while being asked to make this adjustment at the same time.
Both sides had the same problem: they were too rigid. Perhaps the Ent crew was a bit too pampered and a little too comfortable, and this made it harder for them to accept the very idea of changes - which isn't good. Starfleet officers, being trained military personnel, should not be thrown for SUCH a loop when simply asked to make changes to their routines. They still had a job to do, and it had been made clear that the mission was critical and potentially very dangerous, and moreover, that it was a military mission that would demand a higher level of tactical readiness - and less resources devoted to scientific and research concerns - then they were accustomed to. And as much as I like Riker (and used to like him in this episode), I feel they went too far (and did so much too quickly, as well) with his antagonism with Jelico. Right off the bat, he's looking like "aw geez this sucks", because Jelico... was friendly and outgoing after stepping off the transporter pad? Nothing in Jelico's introductory scene was in any way bad - there was no reason at that time for Riker to be acting like this new captain was going to just make his life miserable, yet that's what his expressions and body language (and even the background music at the end of the scene) indicate. It just went downhill from there. I see what they were going for, but they just took things too far, too fast, with Riker being obstinate and un-supportive for no reason. Jelico did make some unreasonable demands on the crew (more on that in a moment), but the episode wants us to take Riker's side in the more personal, focused antagonism that occurs between he and Jelico, yet doesn't show us very good reasons to do so.
On the other hand... Riker told Jelico, flat-out, that moving from a 3 to 4 shift rotation as quickly as Jelico wanted would lead to "significant personnel problems". Riker informs Jelico (and us) that there were significant and legitimate concerns about the shift change according to the department heads. Does that mean Jelico needs to completely back down and not make the change at all? Of course not, but he sure could have handled it better than simply saying "I don't give a shit, just do it."
Later, Geordi complains to Riker about what Jelico expects of him. Not only has he been told to realign the warp coils in two days (a previous scene established that this task alone was pushing the envelope of what was doable and would require the entire Engineering staff to work overtime), but ON TOP of that, he has to juggle all of his duty rosters due to the shift changes and "completely reroute half the power systems on this ship". And then, after being given a list of tasks that would push his department to its limits as it is with the time allotted and personnel available, he loses a third of his staff because Jelico has transferred them to security! LaForge specifically says he doesn't mind changes and doesn't mind hard work, but he isn't being given the time and personnel necessary to effect the changes or do the work. That attitude is entirely reasonable, and we can rely on Geordi's assessment of the situation regarding his department as being generally correct - after all, he's been established through 4+ years of TNG at this point to be an extremely competent chief engineer. Some - certainly not all, but some - of Jelico's demands were unreasonable, because some of them went beyond simply being hard or changing their routine, and were well into "you're nearly asking the impossible here" territory. That's what LaForge is telling Riker, and that's what that scene is telling us. Jelico can hardly be held blameless for the troubles that went on during this episode.
Both Jelico and the crew could have handled the transition better, and the entire situation also wasn't helped by the abruptness of it all, the fact that Picard wasn't just being reassigned but also sent on a clandestine and probably dangerous mission he couldn't tell anyone about, and the fact that the Ent was sent on its own volatile, dangerous mission while being asked to make this adjustment at the same time.
It doesn't help that the writer(s) of the episode had to make it clear Jellico is a complete dick, just to make sure we're completely on the crew's side.
There's absolutely nothing unreasonable about a commanding officer saying, "I don't give a shit how you do it, just get it done." That's how real life works. Once your commanding officer has said "get it done," you either do it or you don't; You don't go back later and say, "You know, sir, I've thought it over, and my feeling is..."
There's absolutely nothing unreasonable about a commanding officer saying, "I don't give a shit how you do it, just get it done." That's how real life works. Once your commanding officer has said "get it done," you either do it or you don't; You don't go back later and say, "You know, sir, I've thought it over, and my feeling is..."
Finally, an answer! Thank you.
I just came across this article on Cracked about life aboard a submarine. Among other things, this submarine in general has 3 shifts in an 18 hr day, rather than 24 like many of us assume is standard on a starship and 26 on DS9. According to the author, his experiences were of 6 hrs of work, 6 hrs of study or more work, and 6 hrs of sleep.
http://www.cracked.com/article_20871_6-things-movies-dont-show-you-about-life-submarine.html
Just some food for thought regarding the original question.
http://www.cracked.com/article_20871_6-things-movies-dont-show-you-about-life-submarine.html
Just some food for thought regarding the original question.
The big difference is that Jellicoe and no one else had the ultimate responsibility, and had been trained and selected by his superiors to bear that responsibility. When he says he wants the watches changed, he is accepting full responsibility for whatever effect it has on his vessel, and it was the duty of his subordinates to support him in that responsibility and carry out his orders to the best of their ability.
When nuclear power allowed constant submerged operation, more options opened up for watchstanding. Besides disconnecting the crew from natural day and night, the sudden and potentially very dangerous hazards of weather on the surface were largely avoided, making watches more uniformly "routine."
The reason the officer in charge of the watch is called "officer of the deck" in the USN goes back to the sailing navy, when he literally had to be out on the deck at all times because the wind had to be monitored constantly and orders given to adjust the sails to any change. Of course steam power changed the requirements considerably. What further changes like space travel and advanced automation would mean is anybody's guess, but it's likely it would be considerably different from our naval/maritime traditions.
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