Why Wasn't Neelix considered a candidate for removal after season 3?

[Guy Gardener]

Re: Why Wasn't Neelix considered a candidate for removal after season

(This is going to get me into trouble.)

(Talking about characters.)

Was Harry more or less inspirational as an Asian then Hoshi since in the future there is no human on human racism, and neither overcame any adversity to get where they got?

(Talking about real people.)

Was Garrett Wang more or less inspirational as an Asian than Linda Park since they were both answering a casting call specifically asking for Asian actors to fill the role of an Asian Character?

(Please note the trouble How I met Your Mother got into from dressing up white people as Asians 2 weeks ago.)

Meh?

...

Guessing without actually saying I am right and others are wrong, I believe that some one who is inspirational should have accomplished something until then believed improbable... Just as the minority cast of TOS in the 60s did, or Avery finding the lead in DS9, which equally taps Mulgrew for taking her show through 7 seasons too unlike the next white guy and the first white guy who just didn't have what it took, even though casting a woman and casting a black fellah in the lead was a stunt put in play by a couple old rich white guys.

Special note...

I didn't notice Bashir was (the other sort of) Asian (really? Alexander seems to be Arabic? Oh bother.) until his parents showed up who were both played by actors seemingly of Indianesque (The partition in 1947 makes it all very complicated) decent.

(Google, google, google.)

He is described in the DS9 Bible as “naive”, “charming” and “cocky” all at the same time. His ret-conned genetic augmentation (which actor Alexander Siddig thoroughly opposed and did his best to sabotage) gives Bashir the ability to perform complex mathematical calculations in his head, and also enhances his physical athleticism. Interestingly, Bashir’s character was originally named Dr. Julian Amoros and was intended to be Hispanic, however Rick Berman was so enthused about casting actor Alexander Siddig (after Berman decided Siddig was too young to play Benjamin Sisko) that the character was re-written to match Alexander Siddig’s ethnicity and no other actors were auditioned for the part.

The Arab docblocks the Hispanic.

Odd, but interesting.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Re: Why Wasn't Neelix considered a candidate for removal after season

Australian tv is all white. Any time there is a non white character the entire point of that character is that they are not white. So in comparison to this everything else, including Star Trek, looks great. I have no idea if Park and Wang were inspirational for asian viewers but they were certainly long due for Star Trek. Main characters, not just the nurse you got to see once a season.

The real fail was Chak's made up tribe of space indians, and I use that word deliberately, that is embarrassingly bad.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Re: Why Wasn't Neelix considered a candidate for removal after season

Harry was funny with Tom, the buddy relationship worked.

Star Trek's women deserved a buddy relationship as well. Now it might never happen.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Re: Why Wasn't Neelix considered a candidate for removal after season

Jadzia and Kira were buddies. Sort of?

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Re: Why Wasn't Neelix considered a candidate for removal after season

Jadzia and Kira were buddies. Sort of?

Theoretically, yes. We see them chatting about dating and are caught out of uniform by Worf in WOTW. However there are few extended moments of commeraderi. The best I can remember is Guinean helping out Crusher after her symposium went south. We never get to see ST women together playing on the holodeck the way men do.

(Btw, I realize Bechdel is an imperfect measure of the development of women's characters, but I feel it is useful in elucidating what's missing. )

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Re: Why Wasn't Neelix considered a candidate for removal after season

Yeah we never saw them playing on the holodeck, just the two of them that I recall but we did see them in medieval princess costumes (?) coming out of the holodeck at one point. Still, the buddy times didn't feature like they did with Tom and Harry, Miles and Bashir.

 

[exodus]

Re: Why Wasn't Neelix considered a candidate for removal after season

Yeah we never saw them playing on the holodeck, just the two of them that I recall but we did see them in medieval princess costumes (?) coming out of the holodeck at one point. Still, the buddy times didn't feature like they did with Tom and Harry, Miles and Bashir.

We also saw them in holodeck spa together.
Plus, I agree with the idea that just because Kira & Dax didn't spend time playing holodeck video games like their male counterparts, that they weren't BFF's. It was clear too me from their playful ribbing of each other over men & relationships that they spend allot of time together talking and gossiping.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Re: Why Wasn't Neelix considered a candidate for removal after season

Yeah we never saw them playing on the holodeck, just the two of them that I recall but we did see them in medieval princess costumes (?) coming out of the holodeck at one point. Still, the buddy times didn't feature like they did with Tom and Harry, Miles and Bashir.

We also saw them in holodeck spa together.
Plus, I agree with the idea that just because Kira & Dax didn't spend time playing holodeck video games like their male counterparts, that they weren't BFF's. It was clear too me from their playful ribbing of each other over men & relationships that they spend allot of time together talking and gossiping.

Your missing the point. Though we were given some evidence of their friendship, we were never shown it beyond fleeting scenes and conversations. Moreover, their friendship never served to undergird a storyline, whether it was a holodeck adventure or something more central, like investigating a covert organization. We got a functional, professional relationship in episodes like Hands of the Prophets wherein the depth of their friendship does not matter.

 

[exodus]

Re: Why Wasn't Neelix considered a candidate for removal after season

Yeah we never saw them playing on the holodeck, just the two of them that I recall but we did see them in medieval princess costumes (?) coming out of the holodeck at one point. Still, the buddy times didn't feature like they did with Tom and Harry, Miles and Bashir.

We also saw them in holodeck spa together.
Plus, I agree with the idea that just because Kira & Dax didn't spend time playing holodeck video games like their male counterparts, that they weren't BFF's. It was clear too me from their playful ribbing of each other over men & relationships that they spend allot of time together talking and gossiping.

Your missing the point. Though we were given some evidence of their friendship, we were never shown it beyond fleeting scenes and conversations. Moreover, their friendship never served to undergird a storyline, whether it was a holodeck adventure or something more central, like investigating a covert organization. We got a functional, professional relationship in episodes like Hands of the Prophets wherein the depth of their friendship does not matter.

Sorry but I really don't see a point.
I think it shows what is factual, women have a different dynamic to their friendships then men do.
I don't think you need a whole story for them to show they were friends, it's overkill.

 

[jmidnight_99]

Re: Why Wasn't Neelix considered a candidate for removal after season
"Jetrel"

I guess his bad acting in that episode can be overlooked. But then what are we looking at?

 

[The Lonely Man]

Because he's awesome.

 

[Lynx]

Re: Why Wasn't Neelix considered a candidate for removal after season

So true!

 

[Sophie74656]

I haven't read all 9 pages so sorry if I repeat anything

In regards to if he was hated or not, at the time Voyager was airing in the mid 90s was there a way for producers to get instant feedback like there is today? Today the minute something airs the whole world knows people's reaction to it. This was not the case in the time of Voyager. So if Neelix was indeed hated at the time the writers wouldn't know until later, after things were written and filmed

 

[2takesfrakes]

So true!

I'd forgotten about this gem! Jennifer Lien was an exceptional woman in her time. She endowed kes with so much that VOY needed. Unfortunately, however, she couldn't do much about Kes having fallen for a space hyæna. As the resident rubberhead, Neelix was the only character who was guaranteed not to get kicked off of the show. Good for Ethan. Bad for us ... and bad for Kes. He did so much to hold Kes back, as a character. She could've proved so invaluable and irreplaceable, except for .... yes, of course, I blame Neelix! It's all his fault ...

 

[Nerubian]

Kind of surprised how popular Kes was.

The Ocampa only living 9 years was dumb and as some others in this thread pointed out, in order to learn the same amount as a 22? year old starfleet graduate in her short lifespan her brain would have to operate on a much higher level making interaction with regular humanoids extremely difficult.

Then there was that awkward episode where she travels backwards through time, Tom married her for no reason other than physical attraction when her looks would fade in 4 years or less and Harry hooked up with her 2 year old daughter?. Yeh awkward.

Her character had a 1 dimensional arc inbuilt from the begininng - that she was going to get very old very quickly through the seasons. By season 4 she would of been the current equivalent of a 45-50 year old.
Watching someone deteriorate into a geriatric while everyone else stays almost the same would not of been an engaging character it would of been depressing.

At least Neelix had some variety to him and improved after breaking up with Kes.

 

[Sophie74656]

I'd forgotten about this gem! Jennifer Lien was an exceptional woman in her time. She endowed kes with so much that VOY needed. Unfortunately, however, she couldn't do much about Kes having fallen for a space hyæna. As the resident rubberhead, Neelix was the only character who was guaranteed not to get kicked off of the show. Good for Ethan. Bad for us ... and bad for Kes. He did so much to hold Kes back, as a character. She could've proved so invaluable and irreplaceable, except for .... yes, of course, I blame Neelix! It's all his fault ...

I always thought that Kes was the one holding Neelix back

 

[The Lonely Man]

I always thought that Kes was the one holding Neelix back

Interesting, you might be onto something here. Once the Jealousy story was resolved Neelix became a more likeable character but he definitely developed more after he and Kes split up.

 

[Sophie74656]

Interesting, you might be onto something here. Once the Jealousy story was resolved Neelix became a more likeable character but he definitely developed more after he and Kes split up.

Exactly, while Kes was there most of his character was just about her and him doting over her and saying isn't she great and then being jealous. Once she left he grew a lot as a character

 

[2takesfrakes]

I always thought that Kes was the one holding Neelix back

 

[Lynx]

I always thought that Kes was the one holding Neelix back

I have to disagree here.

Stating that "Kes was holding Neelix back" is like when a person constantly stumbles over his or her doorstep and then blame the doorstep for his/her own clumsiness.

There's no doubt that Kes and Neelix started to drift apart when they had joined the Voyager crew. Up to then, Kes had seen Neelix as her savior, a hero, superman or whatever who she wanted to follow to the end of universe if necessary.

But well on board the ship, a new life for Kes began. She became fascinated about the ship, the crew, the technology and realized that being a member of the crew meant being able to learn and explore which was exactly what she wanted. She got new friends, she worked with the fruits and vegetables in the Hydroponics Bay, she worked with The Doctor in sickbay.

Neelix, on the other hand felt superfluous on Voyager. He realized that his knowledge and abilities couldn't match those of the other crewmembers and desperately tried to come up with own ideas and purposes for his existence on the ship, like being cook, guide, ambassador, journalist or whatever.

Still, his confidence weren't high and he always had that paranoid feeling that his efforts weren't appreciated.

All that had probably something to do with his tragic background when he lost his family in the war between Haakonia and Talax.

All that made Neelix edgy and in his fear of losing Kes, he became possesive, jealous and over-protective. That lead to a situation in which Kes couldn't do anything without having Neelix hovering over her. If she was talking with Paris, Kim or any other man on the ship, the Neelix immediately became jealous and started to have suspicions. Sometimes it was even worse than that, like in "Twisted" when Kes mentioned something about Hargrove's quarters and Neelix immediately went off the rails. Not to mention his rage when Paris had the audacity to give Kes a nice birthday gift.

Kes tried to cope with the situation as good as she could, like in "Parturition" when she stated that "I love Neelix, why can't he understand that". But in the long run she probably got tired of his antics. It's a miracle that the relationship lasted as long as it did.

Did neelix become better after the break-up with Kes? No, he didn't. He immediately plastered himself to Samantha and Naomi Wildman. If he had a crush on Samantha or simply wanted a family was never stated. It might have had somethingb to do with losing his family as well.

Aside from that, he basically continued to be the same old Neelix. If he became somewhat more relaxed later on in the series, it had nothing to do with breaking up with Kes. It was more the result of him losing the fear that Janeway would dump him on some remote planet whenthey entered parts of sace which he didn't have any knowledge att all about.