Do you think the Feds save endangered planets with no sentient races?

[T'Girl]

Re: Do you think the Feds save endangered planets with no sentient ra

It's like a constitutional text.

I don't think so. I believe it's exactly what it says it is, a directive, a policy (subject to change) either of the federation membership or internally of Starfleet.

 

[Timewalker]

Re: Do you think the Feds save endangered planets with no sentient ra

If Starfleet finds a class M planet with no sentient species they colonize it.

I tend to think Starfleet saves sentient species too, only Picard flunked his Fundamentals of the Prime Directive class.

Yeah, it always seemed to me that Picard was angry at being asked to save these people.

As for saving endangered planets that don't have any sentient life... well the definition of "sentient" isn't settled now, and is evidently not settled even in the 24th century (given that Data doesn't think his own cat is self-aware!).

But I'm pretty sure that if the planet harbored some resource like medicinal plants needed to cure a plague of some kind, Starfleet would definitely act to save it.

If the prime directive originated with the federation council and not internally with Starfleet, then as various council members come and go the PD get reinterpreted, rewritten and it various sections assigned different levels of priorities.

Wasn't it made clear in First Contact that it was the Vulcans whose policy was to ignore pre-warp civilizations, and the only reason they contacted Earth at all was Cochrane's flight? That would imply that the Prime Directive originated with the Vulcans, and that the forms of it that Kirk, Picard, and the rest of the fleet had to follow in later centuries were based on the policy followed by these First Contact-era Vulcans.

see: The Apple and A Taste of Armageddon....yes...yes..we've been over the PD in these eps a billion times. Let's not rehash that.* Even if we accept Kirk's pinhead dancing in Apple, ATOA is the most blatant interference ever seen. He didn't just free his crew, he upset the entire way two civilizations are run. He's literally gambling with the lives of millions of people.

So how exactly was Kirk suppose to handle a situation he was forced into by Ambassador Fox and Anan-7? Order 430+ people into suicide chambers?

Kirk was just part of the problem for the Eminians as reports had that they were short "several thousand". Kirk may have accelerated the issue but it sounds as if the five-hundred year war was starting to wear on the Eminian population.

Eminiar and Vendikarr could've proactively solved the issue any time they wanted be exempting non-native spacecraft that came into their system instead of just executing the crews. But they didn't and that opened up their little game to intervention from the outside. They're just lucky the Klingons didn't stumble upon the situation first.

I can see it now: Kor happens along and is told that his ship has been catelogued as destroyed. Kor doesn't waste time in diplomacy, once he learns of the centuries-long war: He says, "You both want to kill each other? Fine, I'll help you." He then blows both planets' cultures to smithereens (first targeting their war computers and real weapons, of course) and settles in to gather up whatever is left that is of value to the Klingon Empire.

 

[Armored Saint]

Re: Do you think the Feds save endangered planets with no sentient ra

It's like a constitutional text.

I don't think so. I believe it's exactly what it says it is, a directive, a policy (subject to change) either of the federation membership or internally of Starfleet.

There's the word Prime.
- Sorry, we can't do that, it's against our Prime Directive...eu I think...Spock, what are the last updates?
- This week, it means that [insert random content]
- Captain Kirk, are you telling me these so important rule, the first of all, is so inconstant that you can't remember it?
Of course, we can assume there was an evolution between the 23rd and the 24th centuries, but too much fast changes would only have ruined it.

When it's applied in TOS, the PD is a relatively fair rule to prevent imperialism and some other -ism. (And for A Taste of Armageddon, it seems to be a legitimate interference.)

In TNG, it's like if the writers were overly traumatized by the tragic fate of native peoples in America that they transformed the Prime Directive in a reverse colonialism.

The final scene of The Masterpiece Society is pretty example of how it's can be ridiculous. Picard is shocked by the socio-cultural impact of their intervention and Riker is too dumb to have better arguments that a literal interpretation of the PD.

1) I HATEEEEE how almost every damn time the worst possible thing happens when the PD is violated. Come on. If someone provided irrefutable proof that a flying saucer crashed at Roswell...our lives wouldn't change a damn bit. Maybe a teeny bit, but we'd all go to work the next day and say "Hunh. Well time to make the donuts*

Some old stories about flying saucers or giant iron birds are less damageable than a big meteorite.

Perhaps Liko would have been enough rational to don't start this religious trip about the Picard if they simply said to him "Yeah, we're from another world, you were injured by our fault, so we treated you. It's just important to shut the fuck up about this to avoid a big shitstorm in your own word. Anyway, our bald Captain doesn't deserve to be worshiped, he wanted us to let you die."

 

[Greg Cox]

Re: Do you think the Feds save endangered planets with no sentient ra

If Starfleet finds a class M planet with no sentient species they colonize it.

I tend to think Starfleet saves sentient species too, only Picard flunked his Fundamentals of the Prime Directive class.

Yeah, it always seemed to me that Picard was angry at being asked to save these people.

Heck, Picard acted as though he was personally inconvenienced when Beverly thawed out those cryogenic subjects in "The Neutral Zone," arguing that they were technically dead already so why should they get a second shot at life when he had more important matters to deal with?

Brrr. That's pretty cold, Jean-Luc.

 

[Commishsleer]

Re: Do you think the Feds save endangered planets with no sentient ra

If Starfleet finds a class M planet with no sentient species they colonize it.

I tend to think Starfleet saves sentient species too, only Picard flunked his Fundamentals of the Prime Directive class.

Yeah, it always seemed to me that Picard was angry at being asked to save these people.

Heck, Picard acted as though he was personally inconvenienced when Beverly thawed out those cryogenic subjects in "The Neutral Zone," arguing that they were technically dead already so why should they get a second shot at life when he had more important matters to deal with?

Brrr. That's pretty cold, Jean-Luc.

I remember that. Even Beverley didn't seem to want to revive them because of Picard's annoyance. It was only at Data's insistence that they were even transported over.
This was a really bad episode for me. It showed how cold-hearted Picard and Riker were. Data came off OK. And although I can't imagine McCoy or the EMH having any hesitation in retrieving or reviving them, Beverley seemed OK.
I wondered what the writers were aiming at in that episode, to show what bastards Picard and Riker were early in the series? Surely we were meant to relate to the human popsicles and resent Picard's indifference.

Also Riker was at his worst talking down to the 21st century guys (us). You know we don't drink, smoke, eat meat, use money - in other words we are morally superior to you (and any other species in the galaxy by inference).

And this is another TNG episode where they attempted (and were successful) in reviving the dead.

 

[Dale Sams]

Re: Do you think the Feds save endangered planets with no sentient ra

Seriously....Picard's whole "Oh that was when people feared death." YEAH....you guys come off as sooooo unafraid of death. That's why you have a plastic heart, right Picard?

These people had themselves shot into space on the one in a kabillion chance they would be discovered and cured. They should have been given a huge party upon awakening.

 

[Gov Kodos]

Re: Do you think the Feds save endangered planets with no sentient ra

Yeah, it always seemed to me that Picard was angry at being asked to save these people.

Heck, Picard acted as though he was personally inconvenienced when Beverly thawed out those cryogenic subjects in "The Neutral Zone," arguing that they were technically dead already so why should they get a second shot at life when he had more important matters to deal with?

Brrr. That's pretty cold, Jean-Luc.

I remember that. Even Beverley didn't seem to want to revive them because of Picard's annoyance. It was only at Data's insistence that they were even transported over.
This was a really bad episode for me. It showed how cold-hearted Picard and Riker were. Data came off OK. And although I can't imagine McCoy or the EMH having any hesitation in retrieving or reviving them, Beverley seemed OK.
I wondered what the writers were aiming at in that episode, to show what bastards Picard and Riker were early in the series? Surely we were meant to relate to the human popsicles and resent Picard's indifference.

Also Riker was at his worst talking down to the 21st century guys (us). You know we don't drink, smoke, eat meat, use money - in other words we are morally superior to you (and any other species in the galaxy by inference).

And this is another TNG episode where they attempted (and were successful) in reviving the dead.

They may have wanted to do something like this episode of the 80's Twilight Zone where a man from centuries past is revived because he has some knowledge which can help folks in the present. He, though, is a man out of time and tune with the culture he wakes up in. It was an interesting episode, but the TNG episode just makes the crew yet again look like a lot of elitist condescending douche bags. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quarantine_%28The_Twilight_Zone%29

 

[Greg Cox]

Re: Do you think the Feds save endangered planets with no sentient ra

Seriously....Picard's whole "Oh that was when people feared death." YEAH....you guys come off as sooooo unafraid of death. That's why you have a plastic heart, right Picard?

These people had themselves shot into space on the one in a kabillion chance they would be discovered and cured. They should have been given a huge party upon awakening.

Plus, as I recall, it never seems to occur to anyone that the revived corpsicles might require plenty of emotional counseling right away. Why wasn't Deanna on hand to help these people as soon as they woke up? What's the point of having a ship's counselor aboard if not to deal with, say, traumatized patients in sickbay?

 

[T'Girl]

Re: Do you think the Feds save endangered planets with no sentient ra

Even Beverley didn't seem to want to revive them because of Picard's annoyance.

Beverly revived them prior to speaking to Picard on the matter, her telling him she revived them is how Picard found out they were on the ship.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Re: Do you think the Feds save endangered planets with no sentient ra

There's also some hypocrisy when Starfleet expects or wants help from other powers or someone with advanced technology. And how they react when they're turned down.

Prime Factors-- Janeway looked really irritated when a species with an advanced transporter refuses to share it with her. It was capable of transporting them directly home.

She tried to coax them, bribe them, bargain with them, but when they refused to budge, she was visibly upset.

In Janeway's defense, she did acknowledge how it felt to be on the other side.

Another example is how the Fed reacted when the Romulans refused to help or side with them during the Dominion war.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

Re: Do you think the Feds save endangered planets with no sentient ra

They wouldn't. It would be interfering with the natural development of the planet, which is forbidden by the Prime Directive. If it applies to sentient species it would apply to non-sentient as well.

 

[BillJ]

Re: Do you think the Feds save endangered planets with no sentient ra

They wouldn't. It would be interfering with the natural development of the planet, which is forbidden by the Prime Directive. If it applies to sentient species it would apply to non-sentient as well.

I think the 24th century version is dogmatic non-sense. The Prime Directive was never meant to allow primitive peoples to be destroyed by asteroids or natural disasters while a starship captain watched...

KIRK: That refers to a living, growing culture. Do you think this one is?

KIRK:No identification of self or mission.
McCoy:No interference with the social development of said planet. No references to space or the fact that there are other worlds or civilizations.

 

[Greg Cox]

Re: Do you think the Feds save endangered planets with no sentient ra

They wouldn't. It would be interfering with the natural development of the planet, which is forbidden by the Prime Directive. If it applies to sentient species it would apply to non-sentient as well.

Honestly, I don't think the PD is or should be that stringent. The PD was intended to (wisely) prevent the sort of colonialism and cultural imperialism seen in so much of human history, not to be a total hands-off policy towards each and every new planet or lifeform. It's about not trying to "civilize" the natives, recklessly introducing new technology to cultures that aren't ready for it, playing missionary, etc. It's not about sitting back and watching while asteroids destroy entire planets and Klingons invade defenseless worlds.

Granted, this makes for messy gray areas and moral dilemmas, Rogue asteroids are one thing, but what if some alien version of the Black Death is wiping out half the population? That's a tricky one, and that's where the captains have to use their best judgment . . . and sometimes get it wrong. Piously clinging to some abstract principle no matter what makes for weak drama and thin characters.

Story-wise, Starfleet can't be just passive observers all the time. "To boldly go where no one has gone before--but not actually have any effect on the planets we visit!"

(That was one of the main structural problems with Voyager, whose mission basically boiled down to "traverse the the Delta Quadrant while making as little difference to the surrounding space as we can!")

 

[BillJ]

Re: Do you think the Feds save endangered planets with no sentient ra

Story-wise, Starfleet can't be just passive observers all the time. "To boldly go where no one has gone before--but not actually have any effect on the planets we visit!"

I'd also argue that anytime you enter a system with a developing culture, you take a chance on violating the Prime Directive. See: "The Omega Glory"

It seems to me that the Prime Directive is in direct contradiction to the type of exploration that Starfleet conducts.

 

[Greg Cox]

Re: Do you think the Feds save endangered planets with no sentient ra

Story-wise, Starfleet can't be just passive observers all the time. "To boldly go where no one has gone before--but not actually have any effect on the planets we visit!"

I'd also argue that anytime you enter a system with a developing culture, you take a chance on violating the Prime Directive. See: "The Omega Glory"

It seems to me that the Prime Directive is in direct contradiction to the type of exploration that Starfleet conducts.

Indeed, the idea is to encounter strange new lifeforms and civilizations, not to avoid engaging with them at all costs. It's about respecting alien cultures, and not trying to "fix" them, as opposed to keeping the hell away from them.

 

[Jonas Grumby]

Re: Do you think the Feds save endangered planets with no sentient ra

Even Beverley didn't seem to want to revive them because of Picard's annoyance.

Beverly revived them prior to speaking to Picard on the matter, her telling him she revived them is how Picard found out they were on the ship.

That's true, but she was awfully apologetic about it, even whining to Picard, "I didn't know what else to do!"

This has been an interesting thread for me because, while I had noticed the douchbag moments here and there in TNG, I hadn't really realized until now that there were so many of them.

 

[Timewalker]

Re: Do you think the Feds save endangered planets with no sentient ra

Seriously....Picard's whole "Oh that was when people feared death." YEAH....you guys come off as sooooo unafraid of death. That's why you have a plastic heart, right Picard?

These people had themselves shot into space on the one in a kabillion chance they would be discovered and cured. They should have been given a huge party upon awakening.

If they'd been found by the Voyager crew, they would have had a wonderful "welcome to the 24th century" party.

Plus, as I recall, it never seems to occur to anyone that the revived corpsicles might require plenty of emotional counseling right away. Why wasn't Deanna on hand to help these people as soon as they woke up? What's the point of having a ship's counselor aboard if not to deal with, say, traumatized patients in sickbay?

Deanna finally did help the woman a bit, at least with tracing her descendants.

I got the impression most of the command crew were just really annoyed that these people happened along, and wanted to get rid of them as soon as possible. No counseling, no guidance, just lectures to "stay in this room and STFU and don't annoy anyone." Not even so much as "we're glad we could bring you back to life."

...this makes for messy gray areas and moral dilemmas, Rogue asteroids are one thing, but what if some alien version of the Black Death is wiping out half the population? That's a tricky one, and that's where the captains have to use their best judgment . . . and sometimes get it wrong. Piously clinging to some abstract principle no matter what makes for weak drama and thin characters.

That would be an interesting idea to explore... what if some alien species had come along and saved Europe from the Black Death? We'd have a very different world now, what with shifting patterns of inheritance and commerce, wars possibly being won/lost when it originally happened the other way around... James Burke talked about this in his series "The Day the Universe Changed". It's quite interesting, all the ways both large and small, that things took a different direction from what might have been expected, due to the Black Death.

I guess that might be one reason for the Prime Directive in such cases, but it's not very comforting to the people suffering and those who want to help but aren't allowed.

 

[Darkwing]

Re: Do you think the Feds save endangered planets with no sentient ra

IIRC, the Spaceflight Chronology listed the first PD violation as a captain stopping a nuclear war. When I read that, my thought was "WTF? give that man a medal!" I can see silently watching WWII, Korea, Vietnam, etc. But once ICBMs start flying, anyone who refuses to stop Armageddon has no soul. Now, that does not mean breaking into all world broadcasts and saying "We, the more enlightened worlds of the galaxy won't let you destroy yourselves! We just disintegrated all your nukes and will now restructure your governments". But if you sling a few asteroids in the right place, you can introduce an implausible coincidence that the locals can't explain, but can't rule out. It'd be nice to save everybody, but the main thing is just keeping the race from dying out.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Re: Do you think the Feds save endangered planets with no sentient ra

...this makes for messy gray areas and moral dilemmas, Rogue asteroids are one thing, but what if some alien version of the Black Death is wiping out half the population? That's a tricky one, and that's where the captains have to use their best judgment . . . and sometimes get it wrong. Piously clinging to some abstract principle no matter what makes for weak drama and thin characters.

That would be an interesting idea to explore... what if some alien species had come along and saved Europe from the Black Death? We'd have a very different world now, what with shifting patterns of inheritance and commerce, wars possibly being won/lost when it originally happened the other way around... James Burke talked about this in his series "The Day the Universe Changed". It's quite interesting, all the ways both large and small, that things took a different direction from what might have been expected, due to the Black Death.

I guess that might be one reason for the Prime Directive in such cases, but it's not very comforting to the people suffering and those who want to help but aren't allowed.

This is the issue that I find interesting: the possible unintended consequences of intervention. What if an alien star fleet had found the Earth 65 million years ago. Should they save the dinosaurs from extintion? It was a vast, lush ecosystem full of fascinating animals about to be blown away. But if you save them, you might prevent the little mammals from ever evolving into people.

The time frame for any good to come out of a planetary catastrophe is so long that it's tempting to disregard such a distant (and entirely uncertain) future. And yet here we are, in part because the Earth had a very bad day a very long time ago.

 

[Gov Kodos]

Re: Do you think the Feds save endangered planets with no sentient ra

But it's not interesting, it's turning evolution into a religion as well as expanding a biological concept into a cosmological process that none can question; It's creating a fear of happenstance to a point where everything is potentially damaging. It's turning the ongoing process of the universe unfolding around us into some divine plan we dare not interfere with. As someone mentioned earlier in the thread, the Federation may as well give up on exploration and colonization of space if that is the fear on which their PD is based.