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Watching ENT despite the continuity flaws.

I think the only time where the continuity issues really annoyed me was "Stigma" when 35 years of previously established Trek canon was deliberately thrown over board in a massive retcon in order to come up with an - at best - average AIDS allegory.

Fortunately, this abomination was later "de-retconned" in Season 4.

Other things didn't bother me that much. For instance, just because the Xindi had never previously appeared in another Trek show it doesn't mean that they never attacked Earth in the 22nd century. There are a lot of species (and a lot of historical events) out there and you can't expect that they are constantly mentioned.
 
I like ENT. As others have pointed out all of the series are full of flaws (Warp 13 anyone?).

How is that a flaw? There were references to warp 11 and higher in TOS before TNG came along and introduced the "warp 10 limit." It's been accepted for decades that the numbers were simply redefined between the 23rd and 24th centuries, so it's simple enough to assume they could be redefined again.


I think the only time where the continuity issues really annoyed me was "Stigma" when 35 years of previously established Trek canon was deliberately thrown over board in a massive retcon in order to come up with an - at best - average AIDS allegory.

What? If you're referring to the idea that mindmelding was not accepted, that's building on what had earlier been established in "Fusion," which was that melding was unknown to most Vulcans, a lost art. Although there is a definite contradiction between "Fusion," where it wasn't known at all, and "Stigma," where it was known about but stigmatized. Also, "Stigma" retconned the events of "Fusion" by claiming that T'Pol was coerced into melding; she chose to meld voluntarily, and the coercion came later. Still, it was "Fusion" that initially defied our assumptions about the history of melding.

And no, that's not violating canon, because canon had never explicitly stated that melding was openly practiced in the 22nd century. We just assumed it was. It was certainly a reinterpretation, but not a direct contradiction of any previously established facts, as opposed to beliefs and expectations.


Fortunately, this abomination was later "de-retconned" in Season 4.

How boring would it have been if Vulcan history had turned out to unfold exactly as we've always expected, if they'd been a constant and unchanging society throughout? Look at how drastically our society has changed in the past 150 years in terms of civil rights, women's rights, sexual mores, etc. While I have quibbles with the details of how ENT handled the melding issue, I like it that they approached Vulcan history in a believable way, one in which the culture went through changes in its beliefs and politics as real cultures do. Far too many Trek cultures are depicted as static and unchanging from one century to the next. It was so much more interesting seeing the Vulcans having to learn to become the Vulcans we knew, rather than just being that way already.


Other things didn't bother me that much. For instance, just because the Xindi had never previously appeared in another Trek show it doesn't mean that they never attacked Earth in the 22nd century. There are a lot of species (and a lot of historical events) out there and you can't expect that they are constantly mentioned.

Not to mention that the Xindi would've needed to re-establish their civilization on a new homeworld after the depicted events. That's a process that could easily keep them busy for two centuries or more, keep them turned inward as they rebuilt their new home rather than traveling in space. Sometimes civilizations do that -- travel for a while, then turn inward as their priorities change.
 
I think the only time where the continuity issues really annoyed me was "Stigma" when 35 years of previously established Trek canon was deliberately thrown over board in a massive retcon in order to come up with an - at best - average AIDS allegory.

What? If you're referring to the idea that mindmelding was not accepted, that's building on what had earlier been established in "Fusion," which was that melding was unknown to most Vulcans, a lost art. Although there is a definite contradiction between "Fusion," where it wasn't known at all, and "Stigma," where it was known about but stigmatized. Also, "Stigma" retconned the events of "Fusion" by claiming that T'Pol was coerced into melding; she chose to meld voluntarily, and the coercion came later. Still, it was "Fusion" that initially defied our assumptions about the history of melding.

And no, that's not violating canon, because canon had never explicitly stated that melding was openly practiced in the 22nd century. We just assumed it was. It was certainly a reinterpretation, but not a direct contradiction of any previously established facts, as opposed to beliefs and expectations.

Among other things, "Stigma" established that only a very tiny minority of Vulcans were even biologically capable of conducting a mind-meld (with the writers' clear intent of turning "the melders" into the Vulcan version of gays) which was a bit hard to swallow considering that pretty much every Vulcan we had previously encountered had conducted a mind-meld at some point... Spock, Sarek, Tuvok, those Vulcan priests in TMP and TSFS, Sarek's assistent in "Sarek" (TNG), Sakonna in "The Maquis" (DS9) and so on...

Or to quote Memory Alpha:

During the 22nd century, mind melding was believed to be an ability only a minority of Vulcans were born to. Because of the apparent intimacy of melding, Vulcans during this era considered it a deviant practice defiant to the ancestral teachings of their society. As a result, other Vulcans considered those who were natural "melders" to be outcasts. (ENT: "Stigma")

But the point is moot really, because it was then subsequently established in Season 4 that this had been simply a lie promulgated by the Vulcan High Command. That's good enough for me.

But my original reaction to "Stigma" was basically: WTF?
 
^You're attributing my statement to Nerys Myk there.

Seriously, would someone please rewrite this board's editing software so that attributions automatically go with the right quotes? The way it is now, if you're quoting a quote inside a quote, you have to edit out the extra attributions manually and it's far too easy to take out one too many and leave the wrong attribution in place. It's a persistent flaw in the software and I wish someone would fix it.
 
Except the original series and movie Enterprise zipped around the galaxy like it was nothing (rim of the galaxy, centre of the galaxy, 1000 light years in 12 hours at warp 8.4 in "By Any Other Name"etc), whereas in Voyager's world, Starfleet's fastest ship travelling at maximum speeds (given as warp 9.975 in "Caretaker") would take 75 years to cross the Milky Way. It's an enormous fundamental change which breaks the universe and means that much of TOS couldn't possibly have happened going by Voyager's speeds, or that Janeway ludicrously thought a month-long journey would take a lifetime.

It doesn't "break" the universe, because the universe is just a story being told, and stories are mutable. It just revises the narrative. Storytellers should be allowed to fix past mistakes.
It does break it if one wishes to reconcile Voyager with "Where No Man Has Gone Before" or STV without pretending they didn't actually travel to the rim or centre of the galaxy as shown.
One of the pieces of advice given to writers in the TOS series bible was that they should not treat deep space as a local neighborhood -- that interstellar travel should be depicted as something that takes a lot of time and effort. Those occasional episodes and movies that depicted travel over such great distances as quick and easy were in contrast to what Roddenberry wanted. After all, this was a narrative whose creators were making it up as they went, discovering the rules gradually and making mistakes. And there aren't a lot of television or movie writers who have any real grasp of the immensity of the galaxy. So occasionally some unrealistic depictions slipped through. By TNG and its successors, the show had technical advisors on staff who laid down a firmer set of ground rules for how the universe worked, a refinement and formalization of principles that had been applied in a more slapdash manner in the past.
I'd say a lot more than a few ultrafast journeys "slipped through" - off the top of my head...

TOS: Where No Man Has Gone Before
TOS: By Any Other Name
TAS: The Magicks of Megas Tu
Star Trek V: The Final Frontier
TNG: Conspiracy
Star Trek: First Contact
ENT: "Broken Bow"
Star Trek: Nemesis
Star Trek
Star Trek Into Darkness

Add to that just about any Deep Space Nine episode where they travelled from the station to Earth, Kronos, Cardassia, Ferenginar or any other Alpha/Beta quadrant planet, often by Runabout, in the space of a scene break.

How many examples of Voyager/technical manual chart warp speeds are there in Trek canon? It seems to me as if they are by far in the minority compared to the ones that would render Voyager's epic journey moot.
As a writer myself, I am very bothered by the attitude some fans have that every last detail in a series, even the mistakes and bad ideas, needs to be slavishly obeyed, that writers should be forbidden to correct their past mistakes or try to improve their worldbuilding. That's a terrible attitude. Sure, fixing past mistakes in an ongoing series creates continuity problems, but that's because you don't get to go back and revise what's already been released (except on occasion when you do, like in revised novel reissues, directors' cuts of movies, etc.). But it's better than being perpetually bound by those mistakes and bad ideas.
My point was merely to illustrate that there are bigger and more fundamental continuity issues in Trek than those presented in Enterprise.
 
Viva Sativa said:
As far as warp factors go there is no controversy.
Except the original series and movie Enterprise zipped around the galaxy like it was nothing (rim of the galaxy, centre of the galaxy, 1000 light years in 12 hours at warp 8.4 in "By Any Other Name"etc), whereas in Voyager's world, Starfleet's fastest ship travelling at maximum speeds (given as warp 9.975 in "Caretaker") would take 75 years to cross the Milky Way. It's an enormous fundamental change which breaks the universe and means that much of TOS couldn't possibly have happened going by Voyager's speeds, or that Janeway ludicrously thought a month-long journey would take a lifetime.

Kirk's Enterprise reached the center of the galaxy as they know it. If you understand vectors you would know that the Milky Way isn't on a flat plane. It's more like a pizza box at a 45 degree angle with a corner of the box being it's lowest point on a vertical scale. Can you read headings? Because you could leave a galaxy in a fraction of the time if you don't fly within the horizon.
 
^^Problem being they left the galaxy at the rim, not by travelling "up" or "down"

From "By Any Other Name"...

ROJAN: There is an energy barrier at the rim of your galaxy.

KIRK: Yes, I know. We've been there.

http://www.chakoteya.net/startrek/50.htm

Thus placing both it and "Where No Man..." at the galactic rim, far far further out than you (and the 2002 Star Trek Star Charts) postulate.
 
^^Problem being they left the galaxy at the rim, not by travelling "up" or "down"

From "By Any Other Name"...

ROJAN: There is an energy barrier at the rim of your galaxy.

KIRK: Yes, I know. We've been there.

http://www.chakoteya.net/startrek/50.htm

Thus placing both it and "Where No Man..." at the galactic rim, far far further out than you (and the 2002 Star Trek Star Charts) postulate.

I'll try to be as rudimentary as possible so you can understand. A penny has a rim. If just one amoeba was on said penny, how would you locate it when all you know is it's on the rim?

The galaxy isn't round or even symmetrical so how would you approximate where by the rim they are in galactic proportions if you can't even find an amoeba on a penny.

My point is the rim is most likely not a ring, not spherical but definitely three dimensional and it enveloped the galaxy. So how do you know how long it should have taken them if you have no idea where they were?
 
It does break it if one wishes to reconcile Voyager with "Where No Man Has Gone Before" or STV without pretending they didn't actually travel to the rim or centre of the galaxy as shown.

The point is that it doesn't "break" because it bends. It's imaginary, not real, so everything is subject to interpretation. Details can be glossed over or rationalized, and the overall conceit of a coherent reality survives. After all, the whole thing is just pretend, so it's easy enough to pretend that something wasn't precisely what it was claimed to be in the past.


I'd say a lot more than a few ultrafast journeys "slipped through" - off the top of my head...

TOS: Where No Man Has Gone Before
TOS: By Any Other Name
TAS: The Magicks of Megas Tu
Star Trek V: The Final Frontier
TNG: Conspiracy
Star Trek: First Contact
ENT: "Broken Bow"
Star Trek: Nemesis
Star Trek
Star Trek Into Darkness

Out of more than 720 episodes and films. So that's only about 1.4% of the whole. Not too bad an error rate. (Although you're forgetting "Is There In Truth No Beauty?", which also involved crossing the galactic barrier.)

But yes, there are elements of some of those that need to be disregarded. I'm not saying otherwise. Canons disregard their own past mistakes all the time. My point is that it doesn't "break" them to do so, because they're intrinsically flexible. Indeed, you've got it backward. All canons have inconsistencies, so the illusion of reality depends on the willingness to gloss over, rationalize, or ignore the parts that don't fit. What "breaks" that illusion is the refusal to do so.

In the case of "Magicks," the entire conceptual underpinning of that episode, the steady-state theory of cosmology, has been thoroughly debunked by the overwhelming evidence in support of Big Bang cosmology; thus I consider the whole episode to be as apocryphal as "Threshold" or "The Alternative Factor." There's really no way around that, since the steady-state nonsense is so inseparable from the story. And of course many subsequent Trek episodes have referenced the Big Bang, so we know it's true in-universe. A canon is entitled to overwrite its past mistakes, including scientific mistakes.

In the case of ST V, conversely, there are only three near-consecutive lines in the film that mention "the center of the galaxy" at all. If one chunk of dialogue maybe 20 seconds long were cut from the film, the problem wouldn't exist at all. So I'm content just to ignore the reference, since it has no real relevance to the story.

All your other mentions are simply of instances where ships got from one place to another unusually quickly. That's largely just poetic license, driven by the needs of the story. But it doesn't "break" anything, because the creative mind can bend. For decades, since at least the 1980 Star Trek Maps, fans have been theorizing that warp velocities vary depending on the conditions of different parts of spacetime. That idea has even been stated outright in the TNG Technical Manual and ST Encyclopedia.

As for the new movies, the 2009 film was cleverly edited to suggest a very quick jaunt from Earth to Vulcan while actually incorporating clues (such as McCoy's costume change) that considerably more time had passed. So that never bothered me. Granted, STID does show the Enterprise getting from the Klingon border to Earth in mere seconds with continuous dialogue and action throughout, so it's much harder to justify there. But mistakes happen. They don't "break" the canon because canons have the built-in ability to absorb and repair damage.


My point was merely to illustrate that there are bigger and more fundamental continuity issues in Trek than those presented in Enterprise.

I don't agree that starship travel times, or indeed any technical considerations, are "fundamental" issues. What's fundamental to a work of fiction are the characters, relationships, interactions, ideas, and emotions. The technical matters exist only in support of those fundamentals. Unless it's a work of hard science fiction where the scientific premise is the core driving idea of the tale, but then, Star Trek has never purported to be that. It's aspired to be more scientifically credible on the whole than most SFTV and film have bothered to be, and occasionally has done a good job living up to that aspiration (although only occasionally), but it's always been primarily about characters, ideas, and adventures.


^^Problem being they left the galaxy at the rim, not by travelling "up" or "down"

From "By Any Other Name"...

ROJAN: There is an energy barrier at the rim of your galaxy.

KIRK: Yes, I know. We've been there.

http://www.chakoteya.net/startrek/50.htm

Thus placing both it and "Where No Man..." at the galactic rim, far far further out than you (and the 2002 Star Trek Star Charts) postulate.

That's defining "rim" far too rigidly. The dictionary says it's "the outer edge, border, margin, or brink of something, especially of a circular object." Yes, "especially" of a circular object, but not invariably. It can just as well apply to any border or margin. For instance, the same dictionary says that in metallurgy, the rim of an ingot is "an outer layer of metal having a composition different from that of the center." In other words, the entire outermost surface of a 3-dimensional object. So there's no reason the word "rim" can't be used in that sense. And even if there were, it would still be simple enough to ignore one single 3-letter word in the name of common sense.

And really, it's simple logic. The idea stated in "By Any Other Name" is that the barrier precludes safe entry or exit into the galaxy. Therefore, it must surround the whole galaxy, not just be a narrow strip around its outer edge like a bicycle tire, since in that case it would be easy to go around it.
 
Maybe Voyager was the one that got it wrong.

Or maybe, thinking outside the box here, there were conversations we weren't privy to concerning the density of Delta Quadrant space. Like flying through the DQ was like driving through a big muddy mess that slowed the ship down and used much more energy than normal Alpha Quadrant space. In other words, what might take weeks or months in the AQ might take months or years or decades in DQ space.

Just spitballing.
 
Or maybe, thinking outside the box here, there were conversations we weren't privy to concerning the density of Delta Quadrant space. Like flying through the DQ was like driving through a big muddy mess that slowed the ship down and used much more energy than normal Alpha Quadrant space. In other words, what might take weeks or months in the AQ might take months or years or decades in DQ space.

Except that VGR was just following the assumptions DS9 had established way back in "Battle Lines," when it was stated, "The Gamma Quadrant is seventy thousand light years from Bajor. It would take our fastest starship over sixty-seven years to get here." Granted, "Caretaker" said that it would take 75 years to cover "over seventy thousand light years," so evidently Voyager wasn't their fastest starship; but it's not that great a difference. It still works out pretty close to a thousand light-years per year.

True, there are cases where the velocity is clearly faster than that, and that's where the variable-warp-velocities idea comes in handy. It's often been theorized that there are "warp lanes" where the effective speed is higher than the galactic average. These could explain a lot of the anomalously fast trips we've seen in Trek, though not all of them. But for a trip spanning most of the width of the galaxy, the average velocity would probably work out to be, well, more average.
 
The rim or the outer rim?

The centre or the center?
And if sending a ship to the moon is a "moonshot", would that make sending a ship to the rim a "rimshot"?

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