A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor")

[Mister Fandango]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Not so, apparently. What Christopher's referring to is Moffat's assertion that Smith is the 13th Doctor, owing to The Stolen Earth. River's donation/sacrifice had consequences for her - she used up her regenerations, she didn't transfer them.

All of that was utterly obliterated in the 50th Anniversary special. Again, we saw Capaldi was the 13th Doctor. He was acknowledged as the 13th Doctor. It wasn't "All twelve-plus-a-guy-spawned-from-a-hand incarnations plus, uh, some other dude!" It was "All thirteen!" Followed by a tease of Capaldi's eyes, not a second Tennant's.

That's actual canon. As opposed to something Moffat's flippantly thrown out there in order to mislead people so he can "surprise" us in the upcoming special, ala JJ Abrams.

That said, I'm sure there'll be some wonky stuff going on as it wouldn't be Doctor Who if there wasn't. I also have little doubt that Smith's Doctor won't come to the same conclusion that Moffat is suggesting either (in fact, it's all but certain he will based on the trailer). But that doesn't change the fact that we know in both the real world and within the show that Capaldi is the 13th incarnation of the Doctor. Hell, at no point has Tennant showed up twice in the myriad times they've shown all the Doctor's incarnations, certainly not the times they've shown all thirteen.

 

[Mr Awe]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

^ The specifics don't matter much to me because I'm a bit opposed to the whole idea that Moffat rushed us to the 13th incarnation just because he wanted to deal with it during his tenure.

That said, I believe the theory is that Tennant used up a regeneration's dose of energy during the meta-crisis but didn't actually regenerate, just repaired himself. Thus, 12 incarnations used up 12 regenerations of energy rather than the typical 11.

Capaldi is the 13th as you say but would've required 13 doses of regeneration energy to come into existence.

We already know it happens, but how?

Personally, what I think will happen is that Smith's incarnation thinks he can't regeneration. Honestly believes that he has regenerated all he can (given the scenario above) but then is surprised when he does regenerate. Thus the quotes that he's the last Doctor.

However, he's wrong. Why is the question. Guessing that it has something to do with the 2nd big bang and that he was actually the first incarnation of the recreated Doctor. But, it could be anything.

Mr Awe

 

[YellowSubmarine]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Well, if you want to use broad generalizations, aren't spaceship crashes really just falls from great heights?

And fall from heights are more widespread and less precise gunshot wounds. And radiation poisoning and old age are just uniformly distributed inside-out fall from heights-style internal injuries. And who knows what forced regenerations do to the body. Who knows?

Well, it had different implications depending on whether you were talking about Michael or Giuseppe Garibaldi.

Same difference. Both regenerated after wearing a bit thin, and were very bad at finding their fobwatches while still alive.

 

[EliyahuQeoni]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Not so, apparently. What Christopher's referring to is Moffat's assertion that Smith is the 13th Doctor, owing to The Stolen Earth. River's donation/sacrifice had consequences for her - she used up her regenerations, she didn't transfer them.

All of that was utterly obliterated in the 50th Anniversary special. Again, we saw Capaldi was the 13th Doctor. He was acknowledged as the 13th Doctor. It wasn't "All twelve-plus-a-guy-spawned-from-a-hand incarnations plus, uh, some other dude!" It was "All thirteen!" Followed by a tease of Capaldi's eyes, not a second Tennant's.

Nothing was obliterated in the 50th. They said "All thirteen" because they were thirteen Doctors in orbit around Gallifrey in 13 TARDISes. Nothing in that scene disproves the fact that The Doctor used a regeneration while not changing his form during The Stolen Earth. Normally regenerating 12 times would result in 13 incarnations, but Tennant's Doctor regenerated without creating a new incarnation. Smith is the 12th Doctor, but he has also regenerated 12 times.

 

[Mister Fandango]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

^ The specifics don't matter much to me because I'm a bit opposed to the whole idea that Moffat rushed us to the 13th incarnation just because he wanted to deal with it during his tenure.

That said, I believe the theory is that Tennant used up a regeneration's dose of energy during the meta-crisis but didn't actually regenerate, just repaired himself. Thus, 12 incarnations used up 12 regenerations of energy rather than the typical 11.

Capaldi is the 13th as you say but would've required 13 doses of regeneration energy to come into existence.

We already know it happens, but how?

Personally, what I think will happen is that Smith's incarnation thinks he can't regeneration. Honestly believes that he has regenerated all he can (given the scenario above) but then is surprised when he does regenerate. Thus the quotes that he's the last Doctor.

However, he's wrong. Why is the question. Guessing that it has something to do with the 2nd big bang and that he was actually the first incarnation of the recreated Doctor. But, it could be anything.

This is Moffat. He loves his River character. Whatever energy Tennant ate through with his faux regeneration was easily replaced by the massive amount of energy that was infused in him from River that far and away exceeded what he "wasted" in the past.

That said, I agree. I really have no doubt that Smith will think this is his last life and that he will truly die at Trenzalore.

'Course, the prophecy is that Trenzalore is where the 11th would fall. If the people in this thread truly believe that Tennant 2.0 is the 12th incarnation and Smith is the 13th, then it would be the original Tennant who's going to die/fall there, no? Hell, even ignoring the Hand-Tennant, Smith still isn't the 11th thanks to the Hurt.

So somewhere, somehow, someone's wrong about something.

 

[Mr Awe]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

^ In one of these threads, I did comment on how quickly River's transfer was forgotten and the old meta-crisis thing dredged up! All in the name of getting us to the "final" Doctor. Maybe that ends up being why he can regenerate.

We don't know why it happens, but we do know that it does happen.

You think Smith's Doctor will truly die? I don't. There's some out somewhere.

It's funny that you mention Tennant being the 11th because way back when they first said the 11th will fall at Trenzalore, I wrote something to the effect that wouldn't it be funny if we found out we had already seen the 11th and it wasn't Smith. Turns out, that's what happened. Well, I suppose Moffat would say that Hurt was an incarnation that wasn't the Doctor. But, TDOTD didn't leave me with that impression any more, he was a Doctor!

Mr Awe

 

[Christopher]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

^ The specifics don't matter much to me because I'm a bit opposed to the whole idea that Moffat rushed us to the 13th incarnation just because he wanted to deal with it during his tenure.

You keep asserting that as if it were factual, but that's unfair, because it's really nothing more than a guess on your part. You can't assume you know the thought processes of a man you've never met. As I said before, maybe he was pushed in this direction by circumstances. The Metacrisis regeneration had already happened, and maybe he thought the only logical interpretation of that was that it used up one of the Doctor's lives. And maybe he felt compelled to introduce the War Doctor because an existing Doctor (or at least an available one) wouldn't have served the purpose. Maybe he just told the stories he felt he needed to tell, interpreted things in the way that made most sense to him, and that presented him with an opportunity. That's how writing often works -- the stories push the writer in a certain direction, rather than the other way around.

 

[Mr Awe]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

^ Yep, it's a guess. And, you're guessing something different.

I actually do respect Moffat and generally like his work. But, it seems obvious to me that he wants this issue to be dealt with during his tenure.

Mr Awe

 

[Christopher]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

^ Yep, it's a guess. And, you're guessing something different.

Then if you know it's a guess, maybe you should be willing to give Moffat the benefit of the doubt. Better to err on the side of presuming innocence.

I actually do respect Moffat and generally like his work. But, it seems obvious to me that he wants this issue to be dealt with during his tenure.

"Obvious" just means "fitting one's assumptions," and that means the conclusion is only as good as the assumptions you start with. It's hard for non-writers to understand the extent to which stories tell themselves, or guide us in directions we didn't see coming but that create perfect opportunities. So much of writing is serendipity and lucky convergences. There have been so many times that I've just stumbled into something so perfect that it seemed I'd planned it that way from the start. That's why I think Moffat saw an opportunity that was already there and chose to act on it. It's a guess, but given that he and I are in the same line of work, I think I'm entitled to consider it an educated guess.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Even if he did want to bring the issue to a head sooner than expected, what's the problem with that? It's a perfectly legitimate development.

Personally, what I think will happen is that Smith's incarnation thinks he can't regeneration. Honestly believes that he has regenerated all he can (given the scenario above) but then is surprised when he does regenerate.

Same here. I expect it to be an ongoing mystery of the next season.

 

[Sindatur]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

^ Yep, it's a guess. And, you're guessing something different.

Then if you know it's a guess, maybe you should be willing to give Moffat the benefit of the doubt. Better to err on the side of presuming innocence.

I actually do respect Moffat and generally like his work. But, it seems obvious to me that he wants this issue to be dealt with during his tenure.

"Obvious" just means "fitting one's assumptions," and that means the conclusion is only as good as the assumptions you start with. It's hard for non-writers to understand the extent to which stories tell themselves, or guide us in directions we didn't see coming but that create perfect opportunities. So much of writing is serendipity and lucky convergences. There have been so many times that I've just stumbled into something so perfect that it seemed I'd planned it that way from the start. That's why I think Moffat saw an opportunity that was already there and chose to act on it. It's a guess, but given that he and I are in the same line of work, I think I'm entitled to consider it an educated guess.

And it seems that's where characters act out of character sometimes. The writer plans out a story, and the character grows, and changes and the writer forces the story and the character to stay within the "planned box" instead of allowing the story and character to write themselves organically.

JMS has spoken before of characters and the story forcing him to take unexpected turns and refusing to allow him to do what he originally intended.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

I suspect he wanted to deal with it during his tenure, but I also suspect the idea of having it dealt with now was a recent inspiration based on other, independent ideas. I don't think John Hurt's Doctor was created for this moment, he was just created for an interesting story idea. Likewise, the Meta-Crisis Doctor was created for that story alone with no real thoughts about regenerations except that they didn't want to regenerate Tennant but wanted to create the suspense that they were. However, Moffat looked at all these things and thought it was an interesting opportunity to tell a story solving this dilemma now. Certainly, as he's said, he likes to tie everything up with a pretty little bow.

If he hadn't done this, I could see an episode or mini-arc in Peter Capaldi's early tenure dealing with precisely this, but it isn't something that needs to be resolved at the end of his tenure or after Steven Moffat. So the fact that Moffat wants to deal with it isn't the only reason it's being addressed now.

And let's be fair. We haven't been deprived of the Doctor considering his own mortality as we reach the end of his regenerations. Although the audience didn't know fully what was happening, both Lake Silencio and the Fields of Tranzelore were about precisely this. The Doctor has been running from his own death but knows he has to accept it. The Christmas special will be about the Doctor defeating death one more time.

 

[Christopher]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

I suspect he wanted to deal with it during his tenure, but I also suspect the idea of having it dealt with now was a recent inspiration based on other, independent ideas. I don't think John Hurt's Doctor was created for this moment, he was just created for an interesting story idea. Likewise, the Meta-Crisis Doctor was created for that story alone with no real thoughts about regenerations except that they didn't want to regenerate Tennant but wanted to create the suspense that they were. However, Moffat looked at all these things and thought it was an interesting opportunity to tell a story solving this dilemma now. Certainly, as he's said, he likes to tie everything up with a pretty little bow.

That's exactly what I've been trying to say. It goes without saying that Russell T. Davies had no knowledge of Moffat's future showrunning plans when he created the Metacrisis. And as for the War Doctor, let's keep things in perspective: The 50th anniversary episode is, in the grand scheme of things, a bigger deal than one Doctor's regeneration episode. So surely the purpose the War Doctor played in "The Day of the Doctor" was a higher priority for Moffat in developing the character than the consequences in a subsequent episode, even a regeneration episode.

If he hadn't done this, I could see an episode or mini-arc in Peter Capaldi's early tenure dealing with precisely this, but it isn't something that needs to be resolved at the end of his tenure or after Steven Moffat. So the fact that Moffat wants to deal with it isn't the only reason it's being addressed now.

Also a very good point. If that were Moffat's priority, there would be other ways he could achieve it. The reason it's happening this way is because he's building on the foundations that were previously established. Heck, even the War Doctor is Moffat's reaction to the foundations RTD laid down -- the Time War and the revelation of what the Doctor (apparently) did to end it.

 

[DWF]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Truthfully I think the knowledge of Smith's departure meant that Moffat needed to address another regeneration and seeing we how they redeemed the War Doctor it made Smith the final Doctor. Those plans were obviously set in motion after Smith told Moffat taht he was leaving. The Christmas special shoehorned a number of things in a very short time, after all this is the shorted last Doctor story and many things will be revealed.

Moffat told SFX magazine: “It will be tying up various elements of the Eleventh Doctor’s story, some of which people have asked about before, some of which people haven’t bothered to ask about!”

He adds: “From [Matt Smith's] first to his last episode, there will be elements. And it should be obvious they were fairly carefully planned.

“It’s not obstructive – if you didn’t remember any of that stuff or care about that stuff it would still be fine. If you’ve been sitting there saying, “Who blew up the TARDIS?” then you’ll get it.”

And in the latest interview, Moffat says:

“We’ll find out [in the Christmas special] that Matt Smith is actually the 13th Doctor. Although everyone knows that the Doctor can only regenerate 12 times.
That 12 times limit is a central part of Doctor Who mythology – and science fiction is all about rules, right? So if the Doctor can never change again, what’s Peter Capaldi doing in the Christmas Special?”

 

[Mr Awe]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

^ Yep, it's a guess. And, you're guessing something different.

Then if you know it's a guess, maybe you should be willing to give Moffat the benefit of the doubt. Better to err on the side of presuming innocence.

I actually do respect Moffat and generally like his work. But, it seems obvious to me that he wants this issue to be dealt with during his tenure.

"Obvious" just means "fitting one's assumptions," and that means the conclusion is only as good as the assumptions you start with. It's hard for non-writers to understand the extent to which stories tell themselves, or guide us in directions we didn't see coming but that create perfect opportunities. So much of writing is serendipity and lucky convergences. There have been so many times that I've just stumbled into something so perfect that it seemed I'd planned it that way from the start. That's why I think Moffat saw an opportunity that was already there and chose to act on it. It's a guess, but given that he and I are in the same line of work, I think I'm entitled to consider it an educated guess.

<Shrug> Whatever. You've got your guess, and I've got mine. No big deal.

Regardless of how Moffat decided to do this, it still doesn't change that I would've rather reached this point one Doctor at a time.

Hopefully Moffat knocks it out of the park like he did for TDOTD. I'm sure we agree on that.

Mr Awe

 

[DWF]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

As I said it's obvious the idea of Smith's Doctor being the last one is a fairly recent one, as a poster on Gallifrey Base pointed out.

Why is there a need to nullify his ability to regenerate when hes poisoned in Lets Kill Hitler?

Why does River Song tell him off for using some of his regneration energy to mend her hand in Angels take manhattan?

Why does he START to regenerate after the first shot he takes from the 'impossible astronaut'?

For whatever reasons Moffat moved the goalposts again probably because it's the anniversary year and he just wanted to set up the next 50 years.

 

[Sindatur]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

As I said it's obvious the idea of Smith's Doctor being the last one is a fairly recent one, as a poster on Gallifrey Base pointed out.

Why is there a need to nullify his ability to regenerate when hes poisoned in Lets Kill Hitler?

Why does River Song tell him off for using some of his regneration energy to mend her hand in Angels take manhattan?

Why does he START to regenerate after the first shot he takes from the 'impossible astronaut'?

For whatever reasons Moffat moved the goalposts again probably because it's the anniversary year and he just wanted to set up the next 50 years.

The Nullification was a lie to preserve the secret from the audience that he had no more Regenerations left.

In the Impossible Astronaut, The Doctor wasn't Regenerating, The Teselecta was faking Regeneration, since no one knew he had no Regenerations left, and Regeneration would be expected

 

[DWF]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

As I said it's obvious the idea of Smith's Doctor being the last one is a fairly recent one, as a poster on Gallifrey Base pointed out.

Why is there a need to nullify his ability to regenerate when hes poisoned in Lets Kill Hitler?

Why does River Song tell him off for using some of his regneration energy to mend her hand in Angels take manhattan?

Why does he START to regenerate after the first shot he takes from the 'impossible astronaut'?

For whatever reasons Moffat moved the goalposts again probably because it's the anniversary year and he just wanted to set up the next 50 years.

The Nullification was a lie to preserve the secret from the audience that he had no more Regenerations left.

In the Impossible Astronaut, The Doctor wasn't Regenerating, The Teselecta was faking Regeneration, since no one knew he had no Regenerations left, and Regeneration would be expected

The Doctor should know that it's his last life shouldn't he? And you're no one knew at the time, that's the real explaination.

 

[Sindatur]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

As I said it's obvious the idea of Smith's Doctor being the last one is a fairly recent one, as a poster on Gallifrey Base pointed out.

For whatever reasons Moffat moved the goalposts again probably because it's the anniversary year and he just wanted to set up the next 50 years.

The Nullification was a lie to preserve the secret from the audience that he had no more Regenerations left.

In the Impossible Astronaut, The Doctor wasn't Regenerating, The Teselecta was faking Regeneration, since no one knew he had no Regenerations left, and Regeneration would be expected

The Doctor should know that it's his last life shouldn't he? And you're no one knew at the time, that's the real explaination.

Of course the Doctor knew, I'm not understanding the point you're making? Might not be forefront in his mind though, since he kept The War Doctor buried

 

[DWF]

Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

The Nullification was a lie to preserve the secret from the audience that he had no more Regenerations left.

In the Impossible Astronaut, The Doctor wasn't Regenerating, The Teselecta was faking Regeneration, since no one knew he had no Regenerations left, and Regeneration would be expected

The Doctor should know that it's his last life shouldn't he? And you're no one knew at the time, that's the real explaination.

Of course the Doctor knew, I'm not understanding the point you're making? Might not be forefront in his mind though, since he kept The War Doctor buried.

His inability to regenerate not in the forefront of his mind? I can't wait for your reaction the Christmas special.