The Motion Picture question..

[los2188]

As I'm sure a lot of you know, there's been a Star Trek movie marathon on SyFy currently. It got me to thinking about a few things. This is a pretty straight forward question, but do you think The Motion Picture was a good start to the Star Trek movie saga including the TNG movies as well? I know that TMP had nothing to do with the TNG movie set, although, I still don't totally understand why the whole V'ger thing couldn't in some way be connected the Borg, but that's another long back and forth thread that's been over-analyzed to death.

 

[BillJ]

I rank TMP as my favorite Trek film. So yes I think it was a good start.

 

[SeerSGB]

I rank TMP as my favorite Trek film. So yes I think it was a good start.

^ This. For all its flaws, TMP is the one ST movie that I can guarantee I'll watch a least once a month.

I also think TMP marks the transition point where Trek goes from pulpy 60s sci-fi to trying to be a more dramatic, serious, sci-fi franchise.

 

[BillJ]

I just watched TMP this morning on SyFy and I own the thing on both Blu-ray (theatrical) and DVD (Director's Edition).

 

[LOKAI of CHERON]

I rank TMP as my favorite Trek film. So yes I think it was a good start.

^ This.

This x2!

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I still don't totally understand why the whole V'ger thing couldn't in some way be connected the Borg, but that's another long back and forth thread that's been over-analyzed to death.

There are at least five very straightforward reasons why not.

The first is that the Borg hadn't been written yet when TMP was created, so the writers of TMP had no intention of involving the Borg, by default.

Second, when the Borg were created, there was no effort to connect their origin with V'GER. Neither the origin nor the fate of V'GER has been mentioned in on-screen canon outside of TMP.

Third, if Spock is right that the machine planet is represented in V'GER's memory, then V'GER digitized the machines that modified Voyager 6! Oops! Except that they were machines and probably didn't feel any emotion. Ergo, if it was Borg or a Borg precursor all on one planet, then V'GER would have gotten rid of the Borg.

Fourth, Spock called them machines and not cyborgs.

Fifth, the construction of V'GER depended upon machines being unable to fully decipher the Voyager 6 probe. But full-blown Borg, having the experience of an entire collective of assimilated carbon-based life forms to draw upon, should not have had that fundamental handicap.

There are just too many things that don't jibe and which would require tweaking and qualification, for it to be a natural fit.

---

On the question of whether TMP was a good enough start, I was disappointed with TMP when it first came out, and I still am. However, when stacked up against the other Star Trek films, I rank it near the top. This tells me not only that making good Star Trek movies must be a lot harder than I want it to be, but also that probably my expectations at the time were way too high. And that's not to say that TMP is objectively awful, because it isn't. It's not awful, but it has a lot of problems. It also has a lot of good things going for it.

 

[SpocksLeftEar]

The first and the best. Period.

 

[BillJ]

...

I agree with all of your reasons why the V'ger/Borg connection makes no sense.

 

[Maurice]

Plus, to make V'ger connected to the Borg is small-universe at its worst. Space really shouldn't be the shallow end of the gene pool where everything is inbred.

 

[The Old Mixer]

TMP comes off as much more of a standalone than part of the TOS movie series that follows.

 

[BillJ]

Plus, to make V'ger connected to the Borg is small-universe at its worst. Space really shouldn't be the shallow end of the gene pool where everything is inbred.

Agreed. I wish Pocket Books would agree.

TMP comes off as much more of a standalone than part of the TOS movie series that follows.

Agreed again. I've often said its the best of the TNG films.

 

[los2188]

I still don't totally understand why the whole V'ger thing couldn't in some way be connected the Borg, but that's another long back and forth thread that's been over-analyzed to death.

There are at least five very straightforward reasons why not.

The first is that the Borg hadn't been written yet when TMP was created, so the writers of TMP had no intention of involving the Borg, by default.

Second, when the Borg were created, there was no effort to connect their origin with V'GER. Neither the origin nor the fate of V'GER has been mentioned in on-screen canon outside of TMP.

Third, if Spock is right that the machine planet is represented in V'GER's memory, then V'GER digitized the machines that modified Voyager 6! Oops! Except that they were machines and probably didn't feel any emotion. Ergo, if it was Borg or a Borg precursor all on one planet, then V'GER would have gotten rid of the Borg.

Fourth, Spock called them machines and not cyborgs.

Fifth, the construction of V'GER depended upon machines being unable to fully decipher the Voyager 6 probe. But full-blown Borg, having the experience of an entire collective of assimilated carbon-based life forms to draw upon, should not have had that fundamental handicap.

There are just too many things that don't jibe and which would require tweaking and qualification, for it to be a natural fit.

---

On the question of whether TMP was a good enough start, I was disappointed with TMP when it first came out, and I still am. However, when stacked up against the other Star Trek films, I rank it near the top. This tells me not only that making good Star Trek movies must be a lot harder than I want it to be, but also that probably my expectations at the time were way too high. And that's not to say that TMP is objectively awful, because it isn't. It's not awful, but it has a lot of problems. It also has a lot of good things going for it.

I understand all of what you said and I'm not in any position to argue what you just said, but just to clear things up, I was referring to a Borg/V'Ger connection AFTER Decker 'merged' with V'Ger. At that point the usefulness, if you will, of carbon based units, became clear to V'ger, thus integrating them into their make up so to speak.

Also, I'm well aware that the Borg probably wasn't so much as a passing thought by the powers that be in Star Trek at the time. But that doesn't mean much of anything. Scotty implied to a small degree and if it can be interpreted that way, that Kirk was still alive in the TNG episode "Relics", even though later on in Generations....blah, blah, blah, and you know the rest. The point being is that things can be changed to fit scenarios.

But as I said before, I will not argue with what you typed.

 

[F. King Daniel]

TMP isn't enough like the series or the following films to be a "fitting" first Trek movie. I still like it, but it's more like an odd AU than a piece of the puzzle.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I understand all of what you said and I'm not in any position to argue what you just said, but just to clear things up, I was referring to a Borg/V'Ger connection AFTER Decker 'merged' with V'Ger. At that point the usefulness, if you will, of carbon based units, became clear to V'ger, thus integrating them into their make up so to speak.

Consider what Maurice said.

Plus, to make V'ger connected to the Borg is small-universe at its worst. Space really shouldn't be the shallow end of the gene pool where everything is inbred.

---

TOS isn't enough like the series or the following films to be a "fitting" first Trek movie. I still like it, but it's more like an odd AU than a piece of the puzzle.

You mean "TMP isn't" I assume. (If so, then) I agree, and that was one of the bigger problems I had with it.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Whoops! Fixed (thanks!)

 

[Maurice]

Plus, V'ger was essentially trapped in this universe and needed to evolve in order to transcend it...so first, the end of TMP was "exit, stage right" for V'ger from our level of being. Even if that weren't the case, why would it cyber-implant into humanoids when it had the ability to digitize life forms and make wholly perfect, super strong biomechanical copies complete with memories? It's utterly illogical, as Spock would say.

 

[BillJ]

TMP isn't enough like the series or the following films to be a "fitting" first Trek movie. I still like it, but it's more like an odd AU than a piece of the puzzle.

That's one of the things I like about TMP, it feels like a transition piece.

 

[gottacook]

A dissenting opinion:

There's no way I could endorse the idea of TMP being a good start, or any kind of start, to the Trek movie series. So many things went wrong in the script process of TMP that it's a wonder that any of the actual filming and postproduction turned out well. What's more, the actors had to endure long scenes of reacting to special effects that hadn't been created yet, and by some combination of that and Wise's direction, there's no fun in their performances. The restart of the series in 1982 - and recall, please, that the initial TWoK release prints did not include "II" in the title - did not have these problems, whatever one might say about what was lost when one or another element of TMP wasn't retained.

Credentials, of sorts: I own the TMP and TWoK director's edition DVDs, as well as the TMP (color) Fotonovel; also saw the first eight movies in theater (II and III on premiere day) as well as the first network broadcasts of TMP and TWoK.

 

[The Old Mixer]

On an in-universe level, I think it "fits" in that it's the only installment of its particular era in the official chronology, and thus our only glimpse into that era. Story-wise, though, one could skip from TOS to TWOK and not miss a thing.

 

[Hober Mallow]

I've always seen TMP as the first Star Trek reboot, with another reboot following a couple years later with TWOK.

I've always had a soft spot for TMP. Unlike the other films, TMP actually feels like it takes place in the future. My biggest problem with the film is just how ugly and drab everything is. TMP isn't the worst Trek film, but it's definitely the ugliest.