TOS makes me sleepy

[GENERAL_DS]

Good that you bring up sexism. I really dont mind it when its being done occasionally, cause i'd never really notice it. On Star Trek (TOS) i really started to notice it during episode 1x05. i mean, episode 1x04 till 1x08 had woman look like nothing but physical beauty and distractions.

Since i am only half way in season 1 and i already got over most of the special effects and looks of the series I will continue watching it ofcourse. I can't judge a series by half a season. I had kind of the same thing with The Next Generation but slightly less. Looking back on it, that was just the first season not being very good.

Because some find that age is interesting, i am 17. I started watching Star Trek almost a year and a half ago. Nobody in my surrounding area really likes Star Trek and most dont even like Sci-fi, so i had to figure out this star trek thing all by myself and so i started with the series that i had some vague memory of, Star Trek: Voyager. So what kind of sentiment some of you people have with TOS, i have with Voyager. So no matter what other people say about Voyager, I will always place it first. Even the intro means a lot Objectively speaking, and out of 'respect' voor TOS. The original series intro does make me remember that it's the first star trek and that it's the most 'important' serie.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

If you're 17, I'm glad you're giving the original a fair viewing. That's more than a lot of kids will do. I think it all hinges on whether you end up liking Kirk and Spock.

I stuck with all the spinoff series over the years and found a lot to like, but the original series remains my big interest.

 

[Joanna McCoy-Kirk]

First of all, it's not called "Tee Oh Es." It's called Star Trek.

Right on! I enjoy TNG and ENT, but the only true Trek as far as I am concerned is the show that ran from 1966-1969.

 

[Green Shirt]

If only they'd kept Tasha.

More like if Denise Crosby didn't think a big-time movie career was waiting for her.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Since i am only half way in season 1 and i already got over most of the special effects and looks of the series I will continue watching it ofcourse. I can't judge a series by half a season. I had kind of the same thing with The Next Generation but slightly less. Looking back on it, that was just the first season not being very good.

To reemphasize something that I indicated before...it sounds like you're coming out of a spot in Season 1 that I always found problematic myself. The "teens" episodes (going by production number) have always been a rough patch for me.

Because some find that age is interesting, i am 17. I started watching Star Trek almost a year and a half ago.

Well, I have to commend you for giving TOS a shot at all. Just keep in mind that it's a product of its time...not really the future, just a 1960s vision of it.

And it sounds like you got into Trek at roughly the same age that I started delving into it. Though in my case it was the mid-80s...There were three movies then, and TOS was the only show. TNG was right around the corner.

So what kind of sentiment some of you people have with TOS, i have with Voyager. So no matter what other people say about Voyager, I will always place it first.

Heaven help me, I can understand that. VGR probably seems a lot more fresh and original if it's the one that you watched first. (For many of us who watched the other shows first, it was "TNG lite".)

 

[bbailey861]

A lot of very valid points are posted here. The original three seasons of Star Trek are still my favourite, despite there being some clunker episodes in there. Has to be because that's what I grew up with. It only got better when the books started getting published as well. I do get that younger audiences find it dated. 40 years from now, if Star Trek manages to find itself on TV in yet another new series, I would imagine the young audience then will be saying they can't get into TNG, DS9, etc.

 

[GENERAL_DS]

I think the most important arguments are made in this threads, I will get back to you guys on this topic when i finished all episodes of Star Trek. This will probably be within a month, depending on how much free time i have in my university. Thank you all for your comments. Feel free to discus this further.

 

[nureintier]

To be honest, I don't understand...well, not understanding people liking Star Trek, but not TOS. I do think respect is important; without TOS, you wouldn't have any other Trek.

Ok, that's probably what I mean: I'm somewhat shocked and offended when people who claim to love Star Trek, with whom I've spent hours having long conversations about Star Trek, seem to have little to no respect for the original series. I'm not saying they have to love it, but again, the rest wouldn't exist without it.

but other aspects that tie it firmly to when it was made (the handling of female characters, for example) very much have an impact for me.

I grew up in the 80s watching TNG, in which the women were a bit more important and they also wore pants (lol). Yes, I understand that, but on the other hand, it is a product of its time. I can remember being slightly shocked by certain things in TOS when it comes to women, but again, I take it with a grain of salt. But I suppose I can understand if some are put off very much by that.

Its funny but I think TNG in its 80s way was just as sexist as TOS. No women in command positions. The female leads being in 'love' with two of the male leads (who didn't care for them). Riker protecting Troi on away missions.

The camera work focusing on Troi's boobs all the time - I only just noticed this. Troi's outfits. 7s outfits. T'Pols outfits

This also. While I can appreciate that non-TOS women wore pants, the examples you gave are obviously wearing things enhancing their figures and uh, assets. But I think that's a larger problem with the culture and with TV in general. Certainly, Star Trek did do some things involving women and minorities, like having a black woman and a Japanese man. It still blows my mind to think people found the Kirk/Uhura kiss shocking (because I was born a decade after TOS originally aired). I also remember, I don't know which episode, somebody comes onboard and exclaims "a woman!" and Kirk corrects him, "...a crewman." So it got some points, at least.

I mean, the costumes, geez. I'm female and heterosexual and even I find myself staring at Uhura and Nurse Chapel's legs more than their faces. And then the yeoman who go down to the planets on missions, they're in dangerous situations and have absolutely nothing protecting their legs. But again, this is a larger cultural problem with TV and movies. Women being dressed for sex appeal rather than the job they're doing. (But then if you're gonna go there, we might also remember how many times Kirk had his shirt ripped off, lol. Not that it's really comparable, but still.)

 

[2takesfrakes]

Personally, I am awestruck at the audacity of this programme to ask that its viewers play along and use their imaginations, with them, to help tell the story. It's jaw-dropping, really. My eyes still pop, when I see Shat playing in a public park with a stunt guy in a bleached gorilla outfit and I'm being asked - sincerely asked - to believe, by what I see and the musical cues, that his life is in some jeopardy.

Shatner's theatricality was absolutely essential in making these things work - as was Spock's analyzing of it - and the fun of buying into it is just like watching great theatre - like Cats, or something. It's the theatre of the bizarre, really, and it's so colorful and the intent to entertain is so genuine, that I'm swept away, as my disbelief and I say "adieu."

I do not know of many shows which could charm a total stranger into, almost involuntarily, wanting to believe in magic and make-believe. And also ... the dream of all men working together in common cause for the benefit of Humanity. This show is so hopeful, in that regard.

The updated FX they've done only make the other production flaws more pronounced and kind of ruin the effect, for me ... I'm afraid. But TOS has never made me sleepy. In fact, sometimes, I'm downright on the edge of my seat ... and I've watched this show for years.

 

[The Old Mixer]

the dream of all men working together in common cause for the benefit of Humanity

...and all women wearing skimpy outfits to keep the men motivated.

 

[CrazyMatt]

An new and interesting dichotomy has arisen. It's the flipside of another dichotomy from years past.

In the first dichotomy, I--who like many others here was a big fan of TOS prior to the debut of TNG--and many others had a hard time accepting Next Gen as a legitimate entity unto its own. It wasn't until the third season of TNG that I fully began to get excited about that show and consider it "must-see" and a worthy successor.

Now the flipside of the coin seems to be becoming more prevalent... fans who for various reasons never watched TOS and got to become Star Trek fans through TNG, DS9, etc., seem to have a hard time accepting the precursor to the later shows.

Why is this? Many who can't get into TOS seem to be those born well after the series was being broadcast during its original production or the succeeding constant syndication.

It's a shame, because TOS set the foundation for everything else that came later. And it was a significant number of damn fine TV for that, this or any other era.

 

[nureintier]

It wasn't until the third season of TNG that I fully began to get excited about that show and consider it "must-see" and a worthy successor.

Yeah, but the first couple of seasons of TNG did kind of suck. Thankfully I was pretty young at the time and anything with spaceships and aliens seemed cool to me, though. ^_^ (Otherwise I might not have bothered with watching the rest, including TOS).

But yeah, when you were born and what you watched first is certainly important, but not the only determining factor.

Shatner's theatricality was absolutely essential in making these things work - as was Spock's analyzing of it - and the fun of buying into it is just like watching great theatre - like Cats, or something. It's the theatre of the bizarre, really, and it's so colorful and the intent to entertain is so genuine, that I'm swept away, as my disbelief and I say "adieu."

This. I really think it was Shatner that carried the entire thing, wouldn't have worked without him. My friends who dislike it seem to dislike the "cheesiness" and the fact that they do have to suspend their disbelief (as you said, like when you're watching theater). And that's a big part of why watching it is so fun to me.

 

[Melakon]

. . .Shatner's theatricality was absolutely essential in making these things work - as was Spock's analyzing of it - and the fun of buying into it is just like watching great theatre - like Cats, or something. It's the theatre of the bizarre, really, and it's so colorful and the intent to entertain is so genuine, that I'm swept away, as my disbelief and I say "adieu."

I do not know of many shows which could charm a total stranger into, almost involuntarily, wanting to believe in magic and make-believe. And also ... the dream of all men working together in common cause for the benefit of Humanity. This show is so hopeful, in that regard. . .

This pretty much captures my approach to Star Trek in its original incarnation. Television, in its basic form, is theatre for the masses. I've always considered science fiction to be the most theatrical form of television due to what it demands of the audience in being able suspend disbelief and accept it. No series does that in my opinion as well as Star Trek, not even its offspring. Trek as a franchise frequently chose actors with a heavy theatrical background, but none put together that sense of theatre as well as that first series.

 

[scotpens]

. . . I also remember, I don't know which episode, somebody comes onboard and exclaims "a woman!" and Kirk corrects him, "...a crewman." So it got some points, at least.

That's from the first-season episode "Tomorrow is Yesterday," in which the circa-1967 fighter pilot Capt. Christopher is astonished to see women aboard a military starship. Unfortunately, it's also the episode with the rather lame comedy relief of having the ship's computer speak in a purring, seductive voice, explained thus:

SPOCK: We put in at Cygnet Fourteen for general repair and maintenance. Cygnet Fourteen is a planet dominated by women. They seemed to feel the ship's computer system lacked a personality. They gave it one. Female, of course.

 

[nureintier]

Oh, thanks for that. I'd forgotten the rest of the stuff that happened in the episode, it's just that it's the only counterexample that came to mind when thinking about sexism in TOS. ^_^

 

[2takesfrakes]

It's also lost on most people, usually, that these micro-miniskirts aren't just for eyecandy, but are also in there as a nod to the Sexual Revolution which was already well under way. It's a very hard thing to understand, even for its time, but ... women had only dressed sexy for their husbands in private, after they got married. That this social norm exisisted and persisted is hard to accept when everywhere you go there's exposed thongs and see through tops all over and it doesn't mean anything. Just how these chicks dress.

So, what was a hip statement for STAR TREK once, now means something completely other and is unimportant. The editing is hard to take sometimes, just hanging on a master shot, watching a lot of explanatory dialogue, instead of using quick cuts to get the coverage. Yeah, TOS can make people sleepy, if they even hang in there long enough for that to happen. But if you have a vivid imagination and enjoy seeing plays, then maybe STAR TREK can still reward you with an hour's entertainment.

 

[Maurice]

...i mean, episode 1x04 till 1x08...

It's usually best to list episodes by title rather than broadcast order, since most people don't know those numbers.

 

[BillJ]

If it makes you sleepy, then I suggest watching something else. It's the precise reason why I don't watch much of Berman Trek anymore.

 

[Lance]

I do think 'early' TOS is a very distinctly different beast as well. Like early TNG (like most TV shows actually), it went thru a few growing pains. About two-thirds of the way through season 1 is when it really started to dance, and it continued in that vein right through season 2 as well, only getting better and better.

Season 3... well, not so much. When season 3 was at it's best it really sizzled, but it was stiffled by a lot of factors beyond their control (mainly a cut in budget). I'd argue a lot of the stories were still very strong.

 

[scotpens]

It's also lost on most people, usually, that these micro-miniskirts aren't just for eyecandy, but are also in there as a nod to the Sexual Revolution which was already well under way.

Yes, I think younger viewers need to understand that in the 1960s and into the early '70s, miniskirts were a symbol of social and sexual liberation for women, just like the short "flapper" dresses and bobbed hair of the 1920s.

(Damn, now I can't get that "Thoroughly Modern Millie" song out of my head.)

The editing is hard to take sometimes, just hanging on a master shot, watching a lot of explanatory dialogue, instead of using quick cuts to get the coverage.

Personally, I'd rather watch a show with long takes and old-school editing than one with a lot of fast cutting, made for the generation with the attention span of a housefly.