Have you learned nothing from The Menagerie part 2? Humans don't like forced confinement!
Maybe that's because such screams are silly and don't normally happen in those situations?
About the KHAN scream.
- Thread starter Cara007
- Start date
Have you learned nothing from The Menagerie part 2? Humans don't like forced confinement!
Maybe that's because such screams are silly and don't normally happen in those situations?
Fine. But for that to be the case, Khan must be ignorant of the situation which conflicts with his characterization. In that case, it still doesn't work.
Either Khan has read up and Genesis and knows who the Doctors Marcus are, or he's not the superior intellect and just mucking about.
The whole movie is predicated on Khan being an idiot. "Three dimensional thinking" my ass. Maybe the reason is fled Earth is cause he was a terrible military leader and got his ass handed to him by drones and subs.
No, he knows Kirk isn't a family man and he knows he's an adventurer who would hate being confined with past "mistakes" however much he might want to get to know his son.
Was it ideal? No. But the situation was certainly not the eye for an eye scenario Khan made it out to be. The fact of the matter is, if Khan really wanted revenge, his best options was always to beam Kirk up and do whatever to him.
Yup. Stupid Khan is ultimately TWOK's biggest flaw. Meyer constantly tells us one thing and shows us just the opposite. As far as I'm concerned, it is the single reason (all the other nitpicks are pretty ignorable) it's just a really good sci-fi movie instead of being an all-time classic film.
For me Shatner's Khan scream was always partially Theatrical Excellence. I did not like his facial expressions much before the scream but I loved the sound of his voice when he screamed khan. Quinto was kind of meh.
"He is intelligent. But not experienced." And also in the throes of derangement. YMMV, for my money I don't find his missteps are at odds with his characterization.
SeerGSB said:
In retrospect this is awful. But it's a function of Trek's concept of space battle being a bit primitive, not Khan's being an idiot per se. The show had never actually made explicit use of the fabled Third Dimension in combat before.
Wait, why was he in the throes of derangement?
For a popcorn film and getting to see some truly great model work, and getting to see the refit Enterprise kick some ass, TWOK is a good movie. But any deeper meaning than that, and you bide as well riff the hell out of it. It's not a movie that holds up well to critical thought--which is an issue with ALL of the Trek movies, even the new ones.
Stranded on a wasteland planet for fifteen years, watched his wife and many of his people die, wasn't exactly the model of mental stability to begin with.
As per my later post, you have to understand Kirk as Khan does. He knows even a gilded cage would grind Kirk down over time. It’s insidious how evil that guy is!
Oh right.. I guess I would have used a different word. But yeah he's been nursing his hatred a long time. I thought maybe there were some spores I'd forgotten about
I agree with this as far as Khan goes. We are told one thing and shown another. Khan was a useless, boring mess of a villain. And Montalban's performance was so incredibly hammy that Shatner's KHAAAAAAAN may have just been to try and keep up; after all, Shat can't let anyone out-ham him in a Star Trek movie!
That said, I found TWOK mediocre overall, and thought it had other flaws worthy of discussion. Kirk's inexplicable refusal to put up the shields during the Reliant's approach scene remains one of my personal all-time most notable Trek Klunker Moments.Cumberbatch Khan was intelligent and menacing, and someone I could actually take seriously. Maybe that's partly why the STID scream works better for me. All of us, whether we want to or not, let our opinion of an overall work color our perception of how big a deal an acknowledged flaw is within said work. Two movies could have the exact same shortcomings, but if one is fun and entertaining despite them and the other is just a rotten, boring mess all around, the flaws are more glaring in the latter. So both Khan screams are pretty over the top, but one works for me partly because I find the film surrounding it to be much more entertaining overall.
My favorite Khan is Space Seed.
Indeed.
I agree with this as far as Khan goes. We are told one thing and shown another. Khan was a useless, boring mess of a villain. And Montalban's performance was so incredibly hammy that Shatner's KHAAAAAAAN may have just been to try and keep up; after all, Shat can't let anyone out-ham him in a Star Trek movie!
Cumberbatch Khan was intelligent and menacing, and someone I could actually take seriously. Maybe that's partly why the STID scream works better for me. All of us, whether we want to or not, let our opinion of an overall work color our perception of how big a deal an acknowledged flaw is within said work. Two movies could have the exact same shortcomings, but if one is fun and entertaining despite them and the other is just a rotten, boring mess all around, the flaws are more glaring in the latter. So both Khan screams are pretty over the top, but one works for me partly because I find the film surrounding it to be much more entertaining overall.
That often seems to have a bit to do with it, although most people appear to like TWOK. Actually though, it's not one of my favourite Trek movies and I agree with you about the shield rasing business, but I have never had a problem with the entombment of Kirk line or the three dimentional thinking bit. Khan isn't a real starship captain or even an aircraft pilot AFAIK. It is more than conceivable he might make such mistakes. A mental block type thing.
Me too. It wasn't a big action episode, but the dialog was smart and crisp, and I liked the Kirk and Khan scenes.
I know conflicts prevented Shatner and Montalban from ever being able to be at a shooting on the same day, but in my opinion, TWOK suffered from Kirk and Khan never meeting face to face. Most of their dialog was also simply Khan threatening Kirk and Kirk tweaking or taunting Khan.
Yeppers. Of the three, Space Seed is the superior production. You could have put a new villain into either of the movies and told the same story.
STID didn't need to make Harrison Khan. They had an interesting, engaging, villain that would have served the story as well, if not better. I think making Harrison Khan tied their hands to some of the story telling potentials they might have otherwise had.
Well, if you don't want ham, you surely don't want Montalban's Khan. That's for damn sure. If his being an ancient exotic tyrant or an analogue of Captain Ahab doesn't work for you either, hey, different strokes.
For my money:
Loading one's own crew into explosive torpedoes doesn't actually sell a villain as being more intelligent and menacing than Montalban's Khan for me. And the parts of Cumberbatch's performance where he's selling us on his being Khan were like mainlining concentrated ham extract for me. Cumberbatch's villain is otherwise not bad, but not a huge standout from the Die Hard villain mould; I think there's a reason that we have a scene with Spock calling Spock so that Spock can explain to Spock why Khan is a guy to be feared.
Calling it "inexplicable" seems like reaching to me, just as with "why didn't Khan beam him up from Regula One"? It's a bad call, obviously, but hardly an "inexplicable" one, especially from Kirk who's been accustomed to finessing regulations in favour of his own judgment for most of his career, and in fact has no reason to expect an attack from a ship of his own fleet.
For my money:
Loading one's own crew into explosive torpedoes doesn't actually sell a villain as being more intelligent and menacing than Montalban's Khan for me. And the parts of Cumberbatch's performance where he's selling us on his being Khan were like mainlining concentrated ham extract for me. Cumberbatch's villain is otherwise not bad, but not a huge standout from the Die Hard villain mould; I think there's a reason that we have a scene with Spock calling Spock so that Spock can explain to Spock why Khan is a guy to be feared.
Calling it "inexplicable" seems like reaching to me, just as with "why didn't Khan beam him up from Regula One"? It's a bad call, obviously, but hardly an "inexplicable" one, especially from Kirk who's been accustomed to finessing regulations in favour of his own judgment for most of his career, and in fact has no reason to expect an attack from a ship of his own fleet.
