Where Was Shatner At The Enterprise Shuttle Rollout?

[Therin of Andor]

I... I just think the skit would have worked better if they had made an effort getting episode names right. I mean even if their intention was to mock Trekkers, shouldn't they at least make sure that part is correct?

No, because every mistake was deliberate, to see how many pedantic ST fans would point out that there were errors in the skit.

Shouldn't these people be at least consistent with their statements? Do they really forget what they say or are they just ACTING all the time?

When you are expected to tell the same stories every weekend for over 40 years, you get really, really bored - and in an attempt to keep the old anecdotes fresh, you tell the story a little differently every time.

 

[Captain Robert April]

I was mainly building on Brent Spiner's take on the Shatner bashing, that they should thank Shatner every single day for the fact that they all still have careers and have legions of fans to sing their praises, because without Shatner there's a very good chance Star Trek never would've even been picked up as a series in the first place. And my main point was that it's not like he went sailing off to bigger and better things when Star Trek shut down while they were left in squalor; he had to almost start over, working summer stock theatre, and like I said, living in a camper in a friend's driveway (didn't know about the ranch, but if it's too far from where he needed to be to work, it doesn't matter, he lost his house in the divorce and didn't have the money to rent a place of his own). From what I've seen, the others have made a pretty decent living for themselves on the convention circuit, certainly not living in campers, so they're right to gripe is pretty much nil.

 

[Therin of Andor]

so they're right to gripe is pretty much nil.

I'll remember that the next time a senior work colleague treats me poorly for three years and I don't feel like I'm in a position to do much about it.

If Shatner had have been on friendlier terms with his TOS colleagues, maybe someone would have offered him a spare room, or a couch.

 

[jk82]

was mainly building on Brent Spiner's take on the Shatner bashing, that they should thank Shatner every single day for the fact that they all still have careers and have legions of fans to sing their praises, because without Shatner there's a very good chance Star Trek never would've even been picked up as a series in the first place. And my main point was that it's not like he went sailing off to bigger and better things when Star Trek shut down while they were left in squalor; he had to almost start over, working summer stock theatre, and like I said, living in a camper in a friend's driveway (didn't know about the ranch, but if it's too far from where he needed to be to work, it doesn't matter, he lost his house in the divorce and didn't have the money to rent a place of his own). From what I've seen, the others have made a pretty decent living for themselves on the convention circuit, certainly not living in campers, so they're right to gripe is pretty much nil.

Again, I am sorry I misinterpreted your previous comment.

His ranch is not close to LA, and I think he chose to live in a camper to save money. He could have made himself more comfortable, but he didn't, perhaps because he wanted to have enough money to buy gifts for his three lovely daughters and take them out on trips or have dinners on weekends.

I have been wondering why ST hindered careers of many cast members. Has it been a common phenomenon, that a star in a TV series tends not to be able to land another starring role after the show is cancelled? I mean I haven't been paying too much attention to television (really don't watch that much TV other than ST) so I don't know if it happens a lot or not.

I'll remember that the next time a senior work colleague treats me poorly for three years and I don't feel like I'm in a position to do much about it.

Most people don't get any opportunity to publicly complain about it (unless it's harassment or something more serious), let alone complaining about it for 45 years.

If Shatner had have been on friendlier terms with his TOS colleagues, maybe someone would have offered him a spare room, or a couch.

For someone who's told by his father never to become a hanger-on, for someone who would rather be starving in his early 20s than seeking help from his dad...

Nah... Mr. Shatner would not have asked for or taken any help.

If what Mr. Shatner said is true, he has 5 times more dopamine than normal, he could be excused for doing a lot of things he has done. Let's check what high dopamine could theoretically do to one person...

High creativity. Check
Risk seeking. Check
Goal driven. Check
Emotional detachment. hmmh...

 

[Therin of Andor]

I have been wondering why ST hindered careers of many cast members. Has it been a common phenomenon, that a star in a TV series tends not to be able to land another starring role after the show is cancelled?

Most definitely. It's called typecasting. In the 60s, actors were signed to contracts that stipulated they would get royalties for two repeats. Since, in the 50s, many shows went out live, the concept of any show getting two repeats in syndication seemed unlikely but quite generous. So the casts of popular shows like "Batman", "Gilligan's Island", "Lost in Space", "Star Trek", etc., got quite a shock a decade later when they received no more royalties, and were still being seen/overexposed every day - and yet their colleagues were signing onto shows in the 70s and 80s, which had new clauses granting them royalties for every repeat.

An example: an actor friend of mine gets cast in "mother roles". A prime time show she did for two years went into afternoon repeats about a decade later and suddenly all her acting work dried up. She asked her agent and was told that the repeats were overexposing her. Casting directors were turning her down (before audition) because she was considered to be "in work". But her royalty payment was too small to put food on her table every week. After the two years of repeats finished, she started getting offers again.

Remember that some of the supporting cast of "Star Trek" represented minority groups. Hard enough to win auditions in the caucasian Hollywood of the 60s and 70s, let alone when you're being seen in repeats every day.

Most people don't get any opportunity to publicly complain about it (unless it's harassment or something more serious), let alone complaining about it for 45 years.

And the cast themselves did not do much "complaining" until the early 90s. Publishers like controversy to sell books. When the cast all started writing their autobiographies in the early 1990s, we suddenly heard about Takei and Doohan describing Shatner's scene stealing, and Grace Lee Whitney's problems with diet pills, alcohol and sexual assault, and Nichelle's formalization/elaboration of her Martin Luthor King story. The media keeps repeating the stories, and they grow and grow. None of them have been "complaining about it for 45 years". As I said, the convention appearances are delivered quite tongue in cheek - the ones I've witnessed anyway.

 

[jk82]

Most definitely. It's called typecasting. In the 60s, actors were signed to contracts that stipulated they would get royalties for two repeats. Since, in the 50s, many shows went out live, the concept of any show getting two repeats in syndication seemed unlikely but quite generous. So the casts of popular shows like "Batman", "Gilligan's Island", "Lost in Space", "Star Trek", etc., got quite a shock a decade later when they received no more royalties, and were still being seen/overexposed every day - and yet their colleagues were signing onto shows in the 70s and 80s, which had new clauses granting them royalties for every repeat.

An example: an actor friend of mine gets cast in "mother roles". A prime time show she did for two years went into afternoon repeats about a decade later and suddenly all her acting work dried up. She asked her agent and was told that the repeats were overexposing her. Casting directors were turning her down (before audition) because she was considered to be "in work". But her royalty payment was too small to put food on her table every week. After the two years of repeats finished, she started getting offers again.

Remember that some of the supporting cast of "Star Trek" represented minority groups. Hard enough to win auditions in the caucasian Hollywood of the 60s and 70s, let alone when you're being seen in repeats every day.

Thanks for the explanation. I thought being typecast means that one gets cast in similar roles over and over, more like comedy actors often fail to get serious roles, Asian actors would be frequently cast as martial artists etc (shows you how little I know about the entertainment industry). I did not know that people could get literally no job offer simply because they have appeared in successful shows. It's so sad.

How many actors have been affected by this stupid Hollywood practice? Some could have gone on to win Oscars, but now they are only remembered/identified by one role. I now understand why some of the ST cast memberes feel bitter about it. Mr. Shatner and to some extent Mr. Nimoy were already polished/accomplished actors at that time. Granted Mr. Shatner has accomplished a lot since and has benefited financially as well. But now I know why he said "success has always eluded me." If only they had been given more opportunities. They are so much more talented than a lot of "stars" or "pseudo stars" working in big budget motion pictures today.

One more reason not to pay any more attention to the entertainment industry. I think I will stick to being a fan to ST:TOS and Mr. Shatner, and a casual/occasional viewer of movies at best.

And the cast themselves did not do much "complaining" until the early 90s. Publishers like controversy to sell books. When the cast all started writing their autobiographies in the early 1990s, we suddenly heard about Takei and Doohan describing Shatner's scene stealing, and Grace Lee Whitney's problems with diet pills, alcohol and sexual assault, and Nichelle's formalization/elaboration of her Martin Luthor King story. The media keeps repeating the stories, and they grow and grow. None of them have been "complaining about it for 45 years". As I said, the convention appearances are delivered quite tongue in cheek - the ones I've witnessed anyway.

Whether they are really against Mr. Shatner or not, let's hope this won't continue for too long. I know some of them have resolved differences with Mr. Shatner but not all of them. I hope they can make peace with each other during their remaining years. I sure don't want to see their children keep their parents agenda against Mr. Shatner going (sadly I have seen that).

Let bygones be bygones. And please remeber Mr. Shatner does have high dopamine levels.

 

[Captain Robert April]

The discovery that he has five times the normal levels of dopamine is a relatively recent discovery, when he was well into his 70's. Imagine how high those levels might've been in his 30's.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I sure don't want to see their children keep their parents agenda against Mr. Shatner going.

Well, George Takei doesn't have children.

 

[jk82]

The discovery that he has five times the normal levels of dopamine is a relatively recent discovery, when he was well into his 70's. Imagine how high those levels might've been in his 30's.

Does seem he had high dopamine back then too, maybe even when he was 6.

Well, George Takei doesn't have children.

I was not referring to Mr. Takei's children, although Mr. Takei could have acted like a good role model to younger folks. He has not.

Anyway, hopefully in the future there won't be any books titled like

"My beloved parent(grandparent, great grandparent, great great grandparent, great, great, great grandparent)'s nightmare on U.S.S. Enterprise with a diabolical captain..."

 

[Cyke101]

I was not referring to Mr. Takei's children, although Mr. Takei could have acted like a good role model to younger folks. He has not.

This I strongly disagree with. Whatever his beef is with Shatner, it didn't stop Takei from a civil service career between acting gigs and social justice activism causes. He's done the college lecture circuit (which is how I met him), especially in topics of Japanese history and general Asian American educational courses. Lastly, ever since he came out of the closet he's become more active than before in causes he feels are just -- not just with LGBTQ equality issues but issues like immigration and race as well. You simply can't do all that if you don't have conviction and hope in all those causes.

Personal squabbles aside, the guy's built up a pretty good rep as a positive force outside of Hollywood. And no, I don't think there's a competition amongst any of the cast to see who can "do the most good" that would help foster that animosity, either.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I was not referring to Mr. Takei's children, although Mr. Takei could have acted like a good role model to younger folks. He has not.

Why, because he waited till his elderly mother passed away before coming out as gay?

If you are referring to his squabble with William Shatner, then one could easily make a case that Takei feels he's complaining about Shatner's attitude in the workplace. In the 60s a lot of things happened in workplaces all over the world that we see as unacceptable today; these days, more people are empowered to speak out. How is that not being a good role model? Takei should never again discuss his family's internment during the War for being of Asian descent? Grace Lee Whitney should never mention her success thwarting alcoholism and other addictions? Walter Koenig should never mention his various neuroses, or his son's suicide?

I'm fascinated which of the TOS actors' offspring you think are going to continue the rampage against an 80-year-old man's actions in the 60s? It's the media that keeps this old feud alive, and Shatner and Takei only bring it up when they have something they want to promote.

 

[jk82]

I was not referring to Mr. Takei's children, although Mr. Takei could have acted like a good role model to younger folks. He has not.

Why, because he waited till his elderly mother passed away before coming out as gay?

If you are referring to his squabble with William Shatner, then one could easily make a case that Takei feels he's complaining about Shatner's attitude in the workplace. In the 60s a lot of things happened in workplaces all over the world that we see as unacceptable today; these days, more people are empowered to speak out. How is that not being a good role model? Takei should never again discuss his family's internment during the War for being of Asian descent? Grace Lee Whitney should never mention her success thwarting alcoholism and other addictions? Walter Koenig should never mention his various neuroses, or his son's suicide?

My goodness. No more generalizations. "younger folks"=children of cast members, not younger generations. Your guys are going too far.

I It's the media that keeps this old feud alive, and Shatner and Takei only bring it up when they have something they want to promote.

"Promote" is the key word.

I have no problem with people voicing their grievances at workplaces. I encourage people, especially young kids at school, to speak up if they are bullied or harassed. But some workplace conflicts are not that serious and can be resolved by both parties sitting down and having a good hearty talk, with a mediator if necessary. If sitting down fails, usually it leads to people not talking to each other for years and nothing further and no more harm done.

I do believe "forgiving" is really hard. Even if people say they have forgiven, it doesn't mean they have actually forgiven. But to remain negative for the sole purpose of "self-promotion" is not a good thing.

 

[Therin of Andor]

My goodness. No more generalizations. "younger folks"=children of cast members, not younger generations. Your guys are going too far.

Huh, only a few posts, you said, "I sure don't want to see their children keep their parents agenda against Mr. Shatner going (sadly I have seen that)."

That's not a generalization?

But some workplace conflicts are not that serious and can be resolved by both parties sitting down and having a good hearty talk, with a mediator if necessary.

So easy to say. Until you're caught up in such a situation.

Not to mention that if the day-players on TOS took complaints about their lead actor to management, there'd very soon be a new cast of day-players.

 

[jk82]

[
Huh, only a few posts, you said, "I sure don't want to see their children keep their parents agenda against Mr. Shatner going (sadly I have seen that)."

That's not a generalization?

I meant I should not have used more generalizations.

So easy to say. Until you're caught up in such a situation.

Believe me, I HAVE BEEN CAUGHT in situation more serious than this. That's why I encourage anyone harassed or bullied to speak up. Workplace conflicts are not uncommon nowadays, and some people definitely need to take anger management classes. That being said, I do pity people who do certain things since they are often miserable and angry with themselves and their lives and they take their frustration out on somebody else.

Get a dog, keep a positive attitude, be more productive, watch Star Trek, that allows one to forgive more easily.

 

[WRStone]

I think I've ultimately come to one conclusion on this whole matter. I came to the conclusion after decades of watching the various feuds simmer, flare, die down, and then simmer some more.

Here's my conclusion: it doesn't matter any more.

Ultimately you're talking about gripes that in no way impact me, whose details I cannot possibly know -- and in any case, they've been brewing for half a century and even the true "details" are suspect.

It was never any of my business, it's really all just gossip to me, and ultimately I just really don't care.

Hell, the people involved haven't even made a picture together in twenty years. Star Trek VI was 1991, for Ghu's sake. Time to let it all the hell go.

Whatever is going on with Shatner and his supporting cast is really ancient history. All I know for sure is that the supporting cast has beefs with Shatner. Everything else, on every side, is just heresay and gossip.

Meh. These actors won't be making more Trek. Whatever injuries (real or imagined) they received will never be resolved if it already hasn't. Screw 'em all -- I've got better things to do with my time.

Dakota Smith

 

[Captain Robert April]

From what I've seen of Walter Koenig's appearance on "Shatner's Raw Nerve" (the only TOS cast member besides Nimoy to be a guest on the show, btw), Shatner apologized profusely for his behavior, while Koenig acknowledged Shatner's point that the primary culprit in concocting this feud is the conventions, with the supporting cast getting adulation far and above their actual contribution to the show, contributing to dreams of unrequited glory if it wasn't for that rat bastard Shatner stealing their potentially starmaking moments!

Walter's always been the more level-headed of the group.

 

[WRStone]

From what I've seen of Walter Koenig's appearance on "Shatner's Raw Nerve" (the only TOS cast member besides Nimoy to be a guest on the show, btw)
...
Walter's always been the more level-headed of the group.

I've been meaning to catch that segment of Raw Nerve precisely because Koenig has always impressed me. I thought it during the first time I saw him interviewed, on Tom Snyder's Tomorrow in 1976.

Koenig said at the time that the most difficult thing for him was all the adulation he and the supporting cast got at conventions versus where the really were in their careers. He basically said, "We worked a couple of years as recurring characters where we didn't really do much acting. I'm lauded by the crowds at cons, but when I go home, I'm just some out-of-work actor and the praise doesn't matter at all. If someone else had been cast as Chekov, he'd be sitting here instead of me."

Anway, I do need to catch his segment. I just have to get over seeing Koenig without his rug ... :P

Dakota Smith

 

[ChrTh]

Holy crap my account still works!

Anyway ... um, somewhere around page 2 y'all stopped discussing why Shatner was absent from this photo. Any chance we could return to that discussion?

 

[Melakon]

So you opened a two-year old thread to say that?

 

[Capt.Mac]

He was off selling margarine. Promise.