T.W.O.K vs STID
- Thread starter Infern0
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I just have to stand by the fact that WOK is really overrated. I enjoy it for what it is. it is full of plot holes that are blatant, which don't necessarily ruin the movie for me. though, I do realize why it is so overhyped. it was the first trek film that really got some things right. it had a menacing(this is debatable) enemy that could put up a fight against the gang everyone had come to love through a television series. had it been released today it would most certainly get ripped to pieces. and I get it, it wasn't. okay. but a film has to stand on its own and cant rely on the past to elevate it. personally, Id place the undiscovered country leagues above wok.
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For what it's worth, some fans did rip Wrath of Khan to shreds back in '82, in the pages of the old letterzine, Interstat. Here is a sampling of their vitriol (which, as can be seen in this thread are pretty much the same complaints fans are making against Into Darkness today)
The power of rose-tinted nostalgia glasses at work.
There will always be fans harsh on every one of these films. No Star Trek film is exceptional.
Why dont you actually watch STiD before you call it pigshit?
TWOK was my favourite Trek movie, it's what really got me into Star Trek and STiD is great in its own right that works in today's standards.
TWOK had its imperfections, mostly small (why is searching for a "lifeless planet" so hard? why does Reliant not have star charts of the Ceti Alpha system that would have told them something had happened? why do they not remember it's where Khan was stranded? etc.) -- but was mostly excellent despite them, with good character arcs, memorable performances, convincingly-sold action that doesn't try to pummel the audience into numbness, and a truly moving death scene for Spock. A moment whose power was mostly leached by the studio's subsequent greed, true, but still in itself a genuinely moving moment even if you hadn't watched the old series. It is really the only Trek film of either the original or TNG franchises that has won, and deserves, real recognition outside of the Trek fanbase.
STiD is in the main a collection of flaws in which a few good elements can be found, wrapped up in state-of-the-art effects. The state-of-the-art effects are what won it recognition outside fandomverse, but really only (I suspect more strongly with each passing month) briefly and for the same reason Charlie's Angels reboots make money: the flash. Flash has a way of fading quickly, and its having faded, it is no surprise that more people are noticing the plot is nonsensical, the action pretty much interchangeable with any other franchise, the character arcs unearned and the setting's universe cartoonified to an extreme degree.
I actually found the attempts to tie in to TWOK less offensive than some people did -- and STiD's share of the backlash ironic given how much the better of the two Abrams films it is -- but still think STiD fans comparing what's happening now to a few grousers in an ancient fanzine are kidding themselves. TWOK will still be remembered and STiD largely forgotten in another twenty years from now for simple reasons of decent filmmaking versus bad/mediocre filmmaking; the real service Abrams rendered was to remind people of the older, better film.
STiD is in the main a collection of flaws in which a few good elements can be found, wrapped up in state-of-the-art effects. The state-of-the-art effects are what won it recognition outside fandomverse, but really only (I suspect more strongly with each passing month) briefly and for the same reason Charlie's Angels reboots make money: the flash. Flash has a way of fading quickly, and its having faded, it is no surprise that more people are noticing the plot is nonsensical, the action pretty much interchangeable with any other franchise, the character arcs unearned and the setting's universe cartoonified to an extreme degree.
I actually found the attempts to tie in to TWOK less offensive than some people did -- and STiD's share of the backlash ironic given how much the better of the two Abrams films it is -- but still think STiD fans comparing what's happening now to a few grousers in an ancient fanzine are kidding themselves. TWOK will still be remembered and STiD largely forgotten in another twenty years from now for simple reasons of decent filmmaking versus bad/mediocre filmmaking; the real service Abrams rendered was to remind people of the older, better film.
So, "Those people were wrong but these people saying the exact same things now are right!" 
The only differences between now and then is how much easier it is now to complain - anyone can do it from their phone on the couch, rather than having to write a letter, pay for a stamp and walk to the mailbox, and that there is no editor on TBBS vetting the letters so only the most interesting ones are posted/published.
The only differences between now and then is how much easier it is now to complain - anyone can do it from their phone on the couch, rather than having to write a letter, pay for a stamp and walk to the mailbox, and that there is no editor on TBBS vetting the letters so only the most interesting ones are posted/published.
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Actually what I'm telling you is the complaints aren't really of the same nature at all -- I've seen that old fanzine, there's actually a reason complaints like that didn't escalate to the point of the film being denounced and rejected at fan conventions, it's because they are qualitatively different -- and that you're kidding yourself to think otherwise. But you are of course welcome to disagree.
I seem to recall reading of TMP being denounced at conventions - by the actors themselves! If DeForrest Kelley's "This is Star Trek I" [RE: Wrath of Khan] had happened in this era, sites like Trekweb would be glorifying it ("Kelley rejects TMP!") just the same as they did that 100-fan poll at the 15,000+ attended Las Vegas convention which voted Into Darkness the worst Trek movie.
IMO the fandom hasn't changed at all, merely the form of communication.
IMO the fandom hasn't changed at all, merely the form of communication.
There's truth to the notion that fandom hasn't changed. There will always be criticisms thrown at any new Trek film, both good (TWOK) and bad (NEMESIS). Old letters criticizing TWOK for "destroying the franchise" doesn't automatically mean that STID must be good since it gets the same noise. Every Trek movie seems to get that from a vocal group for various reasons. I don't pay attention to that hyperbole because Trek has been around for nearly 50 years and is likely not going away. I don't like the current state Trek is in, but I'm still optimistic for the future because I know that Orci/Kurtzman are not going to last forever.
The ONLY thing that is better about STID are the visual effects, Wrath of Khan is better in every other way IMO!
My preference is for The Wrath of Khan, but I enjoy both.
I love The Wrath of Khan but it has many flaws including "why didn't Kirk raise his shields per regulations?", "why didn't Khan beam Kirk up and snap his neck when he snagged the Genesis device?" and "why didn't one of the engineers who already had access to radiation gear go in and fix main power?" And I could care less about the flaws because when I watch it, I have a good time.
I think that if Star Trek Into Darkness pummeled you into numbness you were watching it wrong or may need to see a doctor because you may have had a stroke. At 42, I had no issues keeping up with the movie and found it a fun thrill ride.
for a film that relies on its television series to add some depth, this film immediately shoots itself in the leg. the most obvious issue is the fact that khan remembers Chekov, but never met the guy in space seed. HELLLO, really? how lazy of writing is that? and yet orci and Kurtz get torn to pieces.
It's pretty easily explainable. As are many of the flaws in The Wrath of Khan. People give TWOK a pass because they like it and skewer ID because they don't like it. But both movies have major flaws.
Whether people want to believe it or not.
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