The episode "Distant Origin"

[oddsigve]

Hello everyone

I`m in the middle of my second viewing of Voyager. I just saw the episode "Distant Origin" and I found it very intriguing. The notion that there was another intelligent being evolving on earth is a very fun notion. Though it`s probably not likely(I say that with the deepest humility because of our limited knowledge) it`s still a fascinating thought. What i found annoying though is the fact that they seemed less "evolved" then us at least on a social pov. what I mean is that the Voyager crew are portrayed as having superior values and a superior moral compass.

When that's said I would love to see a series elaborating on this. For example imagine them sending an envoy to earth on a diplomatic mission to share knowledge and technology. With their propulsion systems etc. we could see a new era in Star Trek with humans possibly moving outside our galaxy. I think it would make a great show compared to some of the recent ideas in the Star Trek Universe(If you get my drift). I would like to hear your thoughts on this.

Regards

 

[Tiberius]

I don't buy it because how could we have all those fossils and not a single shred of evidence that they had a civilisation or spaceflight?

 

[Lighthammer]

It's very likely the Voth race have a very long wake of a condition steming from the Sin of Hubris. That is to say, like many civilizations (and arguably like ours is currently experiencing), TPTB often make decisions with the intent to do whats best for they feel is best for the population and fall down a very slippery slope lining themselves up for corruption.

The path to hell, afterall, is pathed with good intentions.

After a fashion, the leader of the Voth seems like someone who evolved from a long line of monarch-ish persons who may have obtained power legimentantly, used power intelligently with the best intentions with the best of intentions and then became corrupted over time and then held onto via that corruption through laws of attrition.

Its not like the Earth hasn't seen this over and over and over and over again =(.

 

[KaraBear]

Hello everyone

I`m in the middle of my second viewing of Voyager. I just saw the episode "Distant Origin" and I found it very intriguing. The notion that there was another intelligent being evolving on earth is a very fun notion. Though it`s probably not likely(I say that with the deepest humility because of our limited knowledge) it`s still a fascinating thought. What i found annoying though is the fact that they seemed less "evolved" then us at least on a social pov. what I mean is that the Voyager crew are portrayed as having superior values and a superior moral compass.

When that's said I would love to see a series elaborating on this. For example imagine them sending an envoy to earth on a diplomatic mission to share knowledge and technology. With their propulsion systems etc. we could see a new era in Star Trek with humans possibly moving outside our galaxy. I think it would make a great show compared to some of the recent ideas in the Star Trek Universe(If you get my drift). I would like to hear your thoughts on this.

Regards

In Star Trek people are generally portrayed as having a different set of morals than we have now, they are more "evolved" in a sense. As Picard put it "we strive to better ourselves" since nobody has to worry about money and buying things. BUT to get to that point it's been shown that there have been some very HARD times that have been overcome.

 

[oddsigve]

I don't buy it because how could we have all those fossils and not a single shred of evidence that they had a civilization or spaceflight?

As they pointed out in the episode it`s been so long since they evolved that meteors, volcanic eruptions, erosion etc. have buried all traces far beneath the earths surface. Though I agree the likelihood is decimal.

Voth seems like someone who evolved from a long line of monarch-ish persons who may have obtained power legimentantly

Yes, that`s true and to draw parallels to our own history things like the French revolution could have been put down before it gained any ground and we would still have the totalitarian monarchy they had.

BUT to get to that point it's been shown that there have been some very HARD times that have been overcome.

Yeah, things like the war against genetically enhanced humans mentioned in DS9. Sadly it seems the human race have to face some pretty awful situations to gain any ground in that aspect. Sadly we tend to forget our history and from time to time and revert back to our past mistakes, but in the long run the trend of gaining a better understanding and tolerance towards difference have improved.

 

[Yanks]

I don't buy it because how could we have all those fossils and not a single shred of evidence that they had a civilisation or spaceflight?

NASCA!!!!

 

[R. Star]

The proof is the pyramids. The Voth built them.

 

[vulcan redshirt]

This episode does seem to be a faviourite episede of Voyager, with a good premise. I also like the way it's left ambiguous as to whether the Voth actually were originally from Earth or not and that the distant origin theory was just a piece of wishful thinking on behalf of Chakotay and Gegen.

One issue that should have been explored was to have delved into whether, if the Voth were originally from the Earth, they would ever have a legal claim to return, or even claim our planet as theirs, and the issues this would cause the Federation.

 

[R. Star]

I fail to see how it would be a legal issue. I'm sure after a few thousand years, any "claim" they have to the planet is rather null. Not that they'd even want to return as portrayed.

 

[Yanks]

The proof is the pyramids. The Voth built them.

Yup, they were landing pads for the Goa'uld

 

[Praetorian]

If I'm not mistaken, the episode doesn't outright state that the Voth evolved into sentient beings and developed space faring technology while they were still living on Earth. That was more of a supposition.

It's more likely that some advanced alien race, like the Preservers, saw the incoming cataclysm, or its immediate aftermath, and decided to relocate the ancestors of the Voth due to their potential.

My biggest pet peeve is that they claimed the Voth descended from Hadrosaurs, which were basically the cows of the Jurassic. They should have been descendants of a species like the Troodon, which was one of the smartest dinosaurs, apparently.

 

[Yanks]

If I'm not mistaken, the episode doesn't outright state that the Voth evolved into sentient beings and developed space faring technology while they were still living on Earth. That was more of a supposition.

It's more likely that some advanced alien race, like the Preservers, saw the incoming cataclysm, or its immediate aftermath, and decided to relocate the ancestors of the Voth due to their potential.

My biggest pet peeve is that they claimed the Voth descended from Hadrosaurs, which were basically the cows of the Jurassic. They should have been descendants of a species like the Troodon, which was one of the smartest dinosaurs, apparently.

Well, Chuckles little speech would indicate differently.

CHAKOTAY: I see something very different, Minister. An ancient race of Saurians, probably the first intelligent life on Earth, surrounded by some of the most terrifying creatures that ever lived, and yet they thrived, developed language and culture and technology. And when the planet was threatened with disaster, they boldly launched themselves into space, crossed what must have seemed like unimaginable distances, facing the unknown every day. But somehow they stayed together, kept going, with the same courage that had served them before, until they reached this quadrant, where they laid the foundation of what has become the great Voth culture. Deny that past and you deny the struggle and achievements of your ancestors. Deny your origins on Earth, and you deny your true heritage.

Nice info there about the Dino's. I had to look them up. Makes sense to me.

 

[Praetorian]

Aye, as I said, that was Chakotay speculating. The only tangible proof was the Voth's dna, which matched ours. We have no way to know if what Chakotay said actually happened.

I insist on this point because it means that criticizing this episode on the basis that the Voth left no traces back on Earth isn't fair.

I for one consider this to be one the best Star Trek episodes, a classic allegorical tale.

 

[Yanks]

Aye, as I said, that was Chakotay speculating. The only tangible proof was the Voth's dna, which matched ours. We have no way to know if what Chakotay said actually happened.

I insist on this point because it means that criticizing this episode on the basis that the Voth left no traces back on Earth isn't fair.

I for one consider this to be one the best Star Trek episodes, a classic allegorical tale.

Well, aside from some "Peacekeeper" revelation (Farscape), his deduction is most logical. But you're right, it's all just speculation.

As far as the "left nothing on Earth" complaint, other than bone, do we see anything else older than 65 million years old? For all we know, they lived under water.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

What i found annoying though is the fact that they seemed less "evolved" then us at least on a social pov. what I mean is that the Voyager crew are portrayed as having superior values and a superior moral compass.

That's Star Trek. Gene's vision for humanity only works if everyone else is less nice.

 

[Tiberius]

I don't buy it because how could we have all those fossils and not a single shred of evidence that they had a civilization or spaceflight?

As they pointed out in the episode it`s been so long since they evolved that meteors, volcanic eruptions, erosion etc. have buried all traces far beneath the earths surface. Though I agree the likelihood is decimal.

That was the lamest explanation they could possibly give. Remove all traces of this advanced dinosaur civilisation that had space travel and thus the mass infrastructure required to build spaceships - but leave the fossil dinosaurs behind? Any force which removes all traces of a civilisation's accomplishments leaving just traces on the inhabitants is way too selective for my tastes.

it would have been far better if it had been that the hadrosaurs had developed a primitive society, with complex social hierarchies but they lacked the technology. Then the preservers came, recognised the culutre that they had and then transported them to the Delta Q where they developed into the Voth civilisation that we saw.

 

[Pavonis]

Fossils are actually very rare. Maybe at best 1% of specimens are fossilized (and that may be a high estimate), and how many of those are recovered? Even fewer.

So if an advanced civilization lived on Earth 65 million years ago, what would be left behind? It would depend on what their civilization utilized. Did they lay asphalt roads, or just dirt and stone roads? Were their buildings made of steel and glass, or just wood and mud? How many of them were there - billions, or just a million? If they had computer technology, what would their electric circuits look like after millions of years in the rock cycle? Would they be recognizable to us, or would they end up as just a few trace element enrichments in some rocks?

 

[R. Star]

If they were able to build a functional space program one assumes they laid out a global infrastructure and explored and colonized the whole planet first. Crawling before you walk as it were. There would be evidence of this, I should think.

 

[Pavonis]

Why does "functional space program" have to mean "global infrastructure"? And what kind of evidence of any technological civilization would survive intact and identifiable over 65 million years?

 

[R. Star]

Why? Because frankly it takes these things called resources to get into space. That means global commerce and a means of moving products from one place to another. So cities and roads, mines, quarries, and so forth.

As for evidence of technological civilization? Well what's more durable.. at the very least a continent full of roadways and cities or a fossilized bone? Those survived the time period with no problem.