Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

[Timewalker]

Leto II is such a fascinating character, at first I wanted to hate him because Sabina does...

You mean Siona, right? There's no "Sabina" in God Emperor of Dune.

Heretics and Chapterhouse can be difficult to get into at first, because of all the new characters. Once you get past that, I think they are enjoyable and thought-provoking. The image of the BG Reverend Mother with the Van Gogh painting on her wall has stuck with me.

But... ERASMUS THE ROBOT painted that! KJA/BH said so!

I love Heretics as it introduces two of my favourite characters: Waff and Odrade. I think with Odrade he'd finally distilled his perfect BG sister. I'm curious if others feel the same, but it felt for me more of a balls-to-the-wall space opera after the introspection of GE. Chapterhouse I probably need to re-read; enjoyed the politicking but felt inconclusive as a finale (as we now know...)

I always liked Lucilla more.

As for Odrade... you could make a drinking game out of how many times she stares at people.

 

[lurok]

I always liked Lucilla more.

She's more intriguing (given her history). I just have a soft spot for Odrade as BG.

As for Odrade... you could make a drinking game out of how many times she stares at people.

. You're right. I'll have to try that next re-read.

 

[Reverend]

Personally, my favourite character of the whole series is Miles Teg. I honestly don't know why some people dislike the last two Dune novels (ever!) as they have some of the most enjoyable characterisations of the whole series IMO.

 

[lurok]

I definitely think his writing of characters gets better with each book, which is why I like Waff and Odrade (and Lucilla). They feel more real, rather than ciphers.

I'm sure I read somewhere that Herbert liked the Lynch Dune, and began to incorporate elements of his interpretation/characterisations into his novels. Perhaps one of the more knowledgeable Dune experts can verify?

 

[Reverend]

I do remember reading that he really liked what Lynch did with the Guild Navigator, though he thought it could have been "stranger." Don't recall ever hearing that the movie influenced the last two books, though I suppose it's possible as they were both being written around the same time.

RE characterisation: It's funny, but I remember thinking that Paul never quite seemed like a "real" person until after he became the Preacher. Oddly enough I felt the same thing happened with Alec Newman's performance in the mini-series. He really came alive as the Preacher.

 

[Hound of UIster]

I always felt that the era in the last two books felt more "modern" than the Imperium or theocracy that existed in the previous books.

 

[Aldo]

Leto II is such a fascinating character, at first I wanted to hate him because Sabina does...

You mean Siona, right? There's no "Sabina" in God Emperor of Dune.

Whoops

For some reason I keep wanting to refer to here as Sabina...even when discussing the book with a friend of mine. It's really odd.

 

[Set Harth]

The Lord of the Rings grew out of J.R.R. Tolkien's story that he created to service his creation of a language. The whole legendarium was written to show how the language could evolve and spread and change through time. The fact that it ended up being epic fantasy is bonus.

Dune grew out of Frank Herbert's demonstration of the powers and limits of prescience, the dangers of religion and state becoming intertwined, and the unanswerable questions of free will versus determinism. The fact that it ended up being epic sci-fi is bonus.

Actually, if I remember 'Road to Dune' correctly it was the other way around. He started off with an outline for an epic sci-fi adventure tale and later developed it with some much broader themes.

Seems like a good place to use this passage from Heretics:

When I was writing Dune

. . . there was no room in my mind for concerns about the book’s success or failure. I was concerned only with the writing. Six years of research had preceded the day I sat down to put the story together, and the interweaving of the many plot layers I had planned required a degree of concentration I had never before experienced.

It was to be a story exploring the myth of the Messiah.

It was to produce another view of a human-occupied planet as an energy machine.

It was to penetrate the interlocked workings of politics and economics.

It was to be an examination of absolute prediction and its pitfalls.

It was to have an awareness drug in it and tell what could happen through dependence on such a substance.

Potable water was to be an analog for oil and for water itself, a substance whose supply diminishes each day.

It was to be an ecological novel, then, with many overtones, as well as a story about people and their human concerns with human values, and I had to monitor each of these levels at every stage in the book.

There wasn’t room in my head to think about much else.

Following the first publication, reports from the publishers were slow and, as it turned out, inaccurate. The critics had panned it. More than twelve publishers had turned it down before publication. There was no advertising. Something was happening out there, though.

For two years, I was swamped with bookstore and reader complaints that they could not get the book. The Whole Earth Catalog praised it. I kept getting these telephone calls from people asking me if I were starting a cult.

The answer: “God no!”

What I’m describing is the slow realization of success. By the time the first three Dune books were completed, there was little doubt that this was a popular work – one of the most popular in history, I am told, with some ten million copies sold worldwide. Now the most common question people ask is: “What does this success mean to you?”

It surprises me. I didn’t expect failure either. It was a work and I did it. Parts of Dune Messiah and Children of Dune were written before Dune was completed. They fleshed out more in the writing, but the essential story remained intact. I was a writer and I was writing. The success meant I could spend more time writing.

Looking back on it, I realize I did the right thing instinctively. You don’t write for success. That takes part of your attention away from the writing. If you’re really doing it, that’s all you’re doing: writing.

There’s an unwritten compact between you and the reader. If someone enters a bookstore and sets down hard earned money (energy) for your book, you owe that person some entertainment and as much more as you can give.

That was really my intention all along.

 

[kirk55555]

I finished my reread of God Emperor. It was better than I remembered. Its philosophy, while still not something I particularly liked, was atleast more interesting to read than in Children of Dune (it flowed better because it was mostly done in conversations than in pages of description). It still had some weird parts. Siona did a really weird turn at the end after Leto's death. Why the hell does she want to mate with Duncan now? She didn't want to, then immediately after Leto dies she thinks about how she'll have to seduce Duncan. That just came out of left field. If the story had written them becoming closer or something (like Leto planned) it would have made sense, but she just randomly decides she's going to seduce him. Also, Duncan was an idiot. Where did he think Hwi would be when they killed Leto? Of course she'd be right next to him, and would fall off the bridge when they destroyed it.

Another thing I noticed is that Frank Herbert got really creepy a few times. I could have done with out the sex references (why is Duncan climbing a wall need to be described as..."exciting" Nayla?). Also, the philosophy about the Fish Speakers was not just boring, it was kind of creepy. I also didn't need to learn that Duncan really doesn't like gay people, that seems like the kind of fact that just makes Duncan seem like an unlikeable a-hole. Its not even like it was a throwaway comment, its a full conversation that just made me wonder what the point is. I guess it was more of FH's philosophy, but I just don't see the point. If it was philosophy, I'm not sure what side FH was trying to support, either.

So, overall, this is a good book, and even though it has a good amount of philosophy I don't care about, it gets derailed by it less than Children of Dune did. Next up will be Heretics of Dune.

 

[Timewalker]

I also didn't need to learn that Duncan really doesn't like gay people, that seems like the kind of fact that just makes Duncan seem like an unlikeable a-hole. Its not even like it was a throwaway comment, its a full conversation that just made me wonder what the point is. I guess it was more of FH's philosophy, but I just don't see the point. If it was philosophy, I'm not sure what side FH was trying to support, either.

I'd have to reread that, but I think part of it was that Duncan himself was heterosexual, and during his time with the Fremen, he internalized much of their culture and attitudes. Homosexuality/lesbianism were, to the Fremen, anathema. As in any tribal culture, people who refused to conform, refused to do their part in reproducing the next generation, were detrimental to the tribe's survival, and therefore were not to be tolerated.

As for FH's own opinions, who cares?

 

[kirk55555]

I also didn't need to learn that Duncan really doesn't like gay people, that seems like the kind of fact that just makes Duncan seem like an unlikeable a-hole. Its not even like it was a throwaway comment, its a full conversation that just made me wonder what the point is. I guess it was more of FH's philosophy, but I just don't see the point. If it was philosophy, I'm not sure what side FH was trying to support, either.

I'd have to reread that, but I think part of it was that Duncan himself was heterosexual, and during his time with the Fremen, he internalized much of their culture and attitudes. Homosexuality/lesbianism were, to the Fremen, anathema. As in any tribal culture, people who refused to conform, refused to do their part in reproducing the next generation, were detrimental to the tribe's survival, and therefore were not to be tolerated.

As for FH's own opinions, who cares?

I don't really care, its just somethingthat came to mind while I was reading the book. I get the fremen thing, although I think Duncan's opinion was formed before the few months he spent with the fremen (he also made an ass of himself when it came to women soldiers, so I don't think it was his fremen experience that made him an ass).

Personally, I'm heterosexual but I think everyone has the right to be with whoever they want. It was just weird to see that section of God Emperor. I didn't remember that paticular topic ever coming up in the Dune books, so it kind of caught me off guard. It doesn't really effect my opinion of Duncan, he's just more of an ass than I remembered (I actually like Duncan, but God Emperor was definately not his finest hour). It was not a big deal, and when it comes to weird parts of the book I have more problem with Nayla and her climbing "excitement", its just something I didn't remember and that surprised me a bit.

 

[JustAFriend]

Back in late '83 (about 6 months before the film came out) my wife and I were out shopping in a central Ohio mall when I saw two people dressing in robes.

"Look! Those are stillsuits!" I told her.

Sure enough, the movie company had a marketing campaign going before the release of the film.
Very innovative for the time.
(And considering the area, I was probably the only person in the mall who had any idea what it was about...)

 

[Reverend]

I also didn't need to learn that Duncan really doesn't like gay people, that seems like the kind of fact that just makes Duncan seem like an unlikeable a-hole. Its not even like it was a throwaway comment, its a full conversation that just made me wonder what the point is. I guess it was more of FH's philosophy, but I just don't see the point. If it was philosophy, I'm not sure what side FH was trying to support, either.

I'd have to reread that, but I think part of it was that Duncan himself was heterosexual, and during his time with the Fremen, he internalized much of their culture and attitudes. Homosexuality/lesbianism were, to the Fremen, anathema. As in any tribal culture, people who refused to conform, refused to do their part in reproducing the next generation, were detrimental to the tribe's survival, and therefore were not to be tolerated.

As for FH's own opinions, who cares?

I don't really care, its just somethingthat came to mind while I was reading the book. I get the fremen thing, although I think Duncan's opinion was formed before the few months he spent with the fremen (he also made an ass of himself when it came to women soldiers, so I don't think it was his fremen experience that made him an ass).

Personally, I'm heterosexual but I think everyone has the right to be with whoever they want. It was just weird to see that section of God Emperor. I didn't remember that paticular topic ever coming up in the Dune books, so it kind of caught me off guard. It doesn't really effect my opinion of Duncan, he's just more of an ass than I remembered (I actually like Duncan, but God Emperor was definately not his finest hour). It was not a big deal, and when it comes to weird parts of the book I have more problem with Nayla and her climbing "excitement", its just something I didn't remember and that surprised me a bit.

It's been a while since I'v read the book, but my recollection is that Duncan witnesses some Fish Speakers getting up to hanky panky and promptly freaks out. As for the author's views, I think Leto's reaction says it all. He's patiently amused by Duncan's attitude, asserting that it's perfectly natural and even citing Alexander the Great to dismiss any notion that homosexuals can't be effective soldiers.

In Duncan's defence, he's a product of his time and upbringing. Clearly, in 10,191 AG Imperium societal attitudes had swung back towards that sort of thing being an abhorrence, thank perhaps to the prevalence of OC Bible. Another more personal factor may have been some negative connotations associated with the Baron's tastes and perhaps Harkonnens in general.

Leto on the other hand was pre-born with Other Memory. With the total accumulated knowledge of his ancestors, any illusion any notion of an absolute morality was probably the first thing he lost.

 

[Set Harth]

Another thing I noticed is that Frank Herbert got really creepy a few times. I could have done with out the sex references

This isn't unique to Herbert. His whole generation of SF writers tends to be like this.

 

[Reverend]

Yeah, if you want creepy sex stuff, check out Heinlein's later works. Not creepy in the sense that it's explicit....just generally creepy in a "free love carried a bit too far" kind of way. Herbert was decidedly mild by comparison.

Or then there's 'Brave New World' which very early on features a scene I won't even describe for fear of the internet police turning up. Suffice to say, if they ever try adapting that one to film again, you can file that scene under "unfilmable."

 

[Timewalker]

Another thing I noticed is that Frank Herbert got really creepy a few times. I could have done with out the sex references

This isn't unique to Herbert. His whole generation of SF writers tends to be like this.

Dune came out in the '60s, which was the era of the "Dangerous Visions" stories that Harlan Ellison edited. Science fiction novels were getting edgier, and some authors really pushed the boundaries. The original version of Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land wasn't published until relatively recently (not sure what year), because it was too risque for the '60s.

Yeah, if you want creepy sex stuff, check out Heinlein's later works. Not creepy in the sense that it's explicit....just generally creepy in a "free love carried a bit too far" kind of way. Herbert was decidedly mild by comparison.

What's creepy about multi-generational group marriage (Lazarus, Maureen, and Ira Johnson)?

Or then there's 'Brave New World' which very early on features a scene I won't even describe for fear of the internet police turning up. Suffice to say, if they ever try adapting that one to film again, you can file that scene under "unfilmable."

After seeing the Oz TV series (the prison show), I can't think of anything from Brave New World that would be unfilmable.

 

[Reverend]

What's creepy about multi-generational group marriage (Lazarus, Maureen, and Ira Johnson)?

Besides the lengths gone to to genetically modify offspring so they can breed without fear of undesirable mutation? Nothing whatsoever.

After seeing the Oz TV series (the prison show), I can't think of anything from Brave New World that would be unfilmable.

Really? How about a room full of 700 odd kindergarteners, sans garments...uh..."playing"? Pretty sure even HBO wouldn't go there!

 

[Timewalker]

What's creepy about multi-generational group marriage (Lazarus, Maureen, and Ira Johnson)?

Besides the lengths gone to to genetically modify offspring so they can breed without fear of undesirable mutation? Nothing whatsoever.

After seeing the Oz TV series (the prison show), I can't think of anything from Brave New World that would be unfilmable.

Really? How about a room full of 700 odd kindergarteners, sans garments...uh..."playing"? Pretty sure even HBO wouldn't go there!

Okay, it's obviously been too long since I last read that book...

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

I kept getting these telephone calls from people asking me if I were starting a cult.

The answer: “God no!”

"If someone asks you if you're starting a cult, you say YES!"
--L. Ron Hubbard by way of Ghostbusters

 

[Timewalker]

There was already a SF-inspired cult going on around that time: the water-cult of Stranger in a Strange Land, when people went around "grokking" everything.