Episode of the Week: 3x11 "The Hunted"

[BillJ]

See? That's the Federation working with a non-Federation civilization put an end to a conflict hands on. No "it's none of our business" or "Let's see if they survive the night".

But if you force a solution on someone that they really don't want, then that solution isn't likely too last for long. I agree with Picard that the only way a lasting solution would be reached would be to hold the Angosian governments feet to the fire.

And Peter David postulated that Eminiar and Vendikarr went to war anyway and Vendikarr was obliterated in DC Comics (2nd run) issue #11, "...Let's Kill All The Lawyers!"

 

[Jeyl]

But if you force a solution on someone that they really don't want, then that solution isn't likely too last for long.

Force a solution on someone that they really don't want. Is that not exactly what Picard did? He forced the Prime Minister to deal with something he didn't want by refusing him his assistance and simply leaving.

And where in this sentence "They can either accept the Federation's help at reintegrating their soldiers back into society at no expense, or deal with the situation themselves." There are TWO CHOICES there! That's not a "forced solution". Plus reintegrating their soldiers was a method that their society considered, but was deemed too expensive. Offering to go with a solution that they themselves considered but without the expense.

Also, the comics are non-canon. Even if they were, well, at least Kirk tried. Seeing the potential of something bad happening that no one can predict with certainty shouldn't be the reason why no one should try and help. Otherwise this whole Federation was a mistake to begin with. Also if Kirk didn't interfere in the manner he was presented with, no one in that panel would be alive right now.

 

[BillJ]

Force a solution on someone that they really don't want. Is that not exactly what Picard did? He forced the Prime Minister to deal with something he didn't want by refusing him his assistance and simply leaving.

It is not Picard's job to solve these people's problems for them.

And where in this sentence "They can either accept the Federation's help at reintegrating their soldiers back into society at no expense, or deal with the situation themselves." There are TWO CHOICES there! That's not a "forced solution". Plus reintegrating their soldiers was a method that their society considered, but was deemed too expensive. Offering to go with a solution that they themselves considered but without the expense.

So the Federation is suppose to pay to fix a problem that the Angosian government refused to?

Also, the comics are non-canon. Even if they were, well, at least Kirk tried. Seeing the potential of something bad happening that no one can predict with certainty shouldn't be the reason why no one should try and help. Otherwise this whole Federation was a mistake to begin with. Also if Kirk didn't interfere in the manner he was presented with, no one in that would be alive right now.

Stories are stories and the "Trial of James T. Kirk" storyline along with "The Return of the Serpent" (DC Comics 1st run issues #43-45) seem applicable here. As we've learned here on Earth, not every situation is made better by imposing outsider values on a culture (See: Enterprise, "Cogenitor"). Sometimes, they simply have to find their own way. Even if that road is paved with blood.

 

[Jeyl]

It is not Picard's job to solve these people's problems for them.

So why help capture one of their escaped prisoners? That's not Picard's problem, but he did it anyways. Heck, Roga escaping the Enterprise was under Picard's watch, not the Prime Minister's. Saying that they delivered the prisoner back is like saying you delivered a criminal back to jail after it's been raised to the ground.

Also, Up The Long Ladder showed Picard was willing to not only force a solution down not one, but TWO cultures' throats, but in such a way he had to blackmail them into doing it.

Picard: Now, Commander Riker has asked that your laboratories be inspected for stolen tissue samples, and I understand his concern. We may have to transport all your equipment here, to the Enterprise.
Granger: I see. When reason fails, you'll resort to blackmail.
Picard: Fine. Destroy yourselves.
Pulaski: It's not so bad, Captain. In fifty years we'll have a new class M planet, complete with cities, and ready for colonisation.
Picard: You see, the end is closer than you like to think.

Again, this culture doesn't want to go this route, but Picard is using methods to force them into accepting it.

Stories are stories and the "Trial of James T. Kirk" storyline along with "The Return of the Serpent" (DC Comics 1st run issues #43-45) seem applicable here. As we've learned here on Earth, not every situation is made better by imposing outsider values on a culture. Sometimes, they simply have to find their own way. Even if that road is paved with blood.

For crying out loud. GIVING THE PRIME MINISTER A CHOICE IS NOT IMPOSING THEIR VALUES ONTO HIM! He can say yes to the Federation helping his soldiers reintegrate back into society, or not. The choice is his, and since Picard is already too happy to leave them to their fates, I'm sure he wouldn't impose the peaceful solution if the Prime Minister said no.

(See: Enterprise, "Cogenitor")

I would consider that a fair point, but than I remembered it's from Enterprise, a show where the main character decided it was best to allow an entire alien civilization to die than out than continue to live a peaceful co-existance with another species (See: Enterprise, "Dear Doctor"). When your characters get praise for dictating that the fate of an entire race should be to just die out, yet they reprimand their officers for educating someone else about individuality and self-awareness to their own worth, their moral compass is way off in the deep end.

 

[BillJ]

The less said about Dear Doctor, the better.

As far as Up the Long Ladder goes, these were Earth colonists Picard was dealing with. Plus, the Enterprise crew had the right to refuse being cloned.

Once you bite the hand that is trying to help you, like the Angosian government did, you'll find people are less likely to offer that help a second time around.

 

[Jeyl]

And if I can just make one more point, don't you think this whole argument just shows how this episode is a poor attempt at bringing awareness to soldiers who have fought in wars but are neglected? When the main issue isn't whether or not soldiers should be treated more fairly, but how we should just mind our own business and let god sort it out, where is the commitment to the message? The reason why the subject of war veterans being neglected is an important one is because they are OUR VETERANS. Speaking as an American who has never fought in a war, I find it astounding that an episode that tries to do something with it and reduces it into an alien civilization where you can simply ignore it thanks to the Prime Directive. If your main characters care more about not involving themselves in the affairs of others, you are short changing the message.

That's another reason why Deep Space Nine's "The Siege of AR-558" and subsequent episode involving Nog's trauma do a much better job in dealing with this sort of situation. Nog is a part of the crew, not some "alien of the week" who we can simply drop off onto their home planet and forget about. When the trauma of what happened to him affects his behavior, it affects everyone around him, even his non-starfleet friends.

 

[BillJ]

That's another reason why Deep Space Nine's "The Siege of AR-558" and subsequent episode involving Nog's trauma do a much better job in dealing with this sort of situation. Nog is a part of the crew, not some "alien of the week" who we can simply drop off onto their home planet and forget about.

I really wished they had dropped him off at his planet, along with the Vic Fontaine holo-program.

 

[Makarov]

If the government leaders survived this episode and did actually resolve their internal issues, I would think this encounter would still seriously piss them off towards the federation. Everyone in that culture who ends up having problems due to the new changes would probably blame the federation.

 

[BillJ]

If the government leaders survived this episode and did actually resolve their internal issues, I would think this encounter would still seriously piss them off towards the federation. Everyone in that culture who ends up having problems due to the new changes would probably blame the federation.

And?

 

[Makarov]

And that means it's not the happy go lucky ending that it seems to be. Picard's not suppposed to go around making enemies for the federation. They got involved just enough to disrupt their entire government but beam away at the most critical moment.

 

[BillJ]

And that means it's not the happy go lucky ending that it seems to be. Picard's not suppposed to go around making enemies for the federation. They got involved just enough to disrupt their entire government but beam away at the most critical moment.

Picard was there to evaluate whether the Angosians were ready for Federation membership or not. He wasn't there to fix internal problems that they themselves created.

Maybe if the Angosian government had been honest about the situation and tried not to be utter assholes, Picard may have then been more inclined to help.

 

[Jeyl]

Maybe if the Angosian government had been honest about the situation and tried not to be utter assholes, Picard may have then been more inclined to help.

Problem is that Picard himself acts like a complete a-hole to the Angosian government. Would it not have been better, and perhaps more in tune with the message of the episode if Picard tried and convince the Prime Minister that he understands the situation they face by referring to Earth's history? He could have said that Earth itself faced similar circumstances when the War that their soldiers fought in was over. It would have been so much better if Picard actually tried to get the Prime Minister to come to an understanding, instead choosing to lecture and berate him in a way that doesn't resolve anything.

 

[MikeS]

Are you kidding? His government altered him, used him and then threw him away without even trying to rehabilitate him. "These men had families". When you back an animal into a corner it is likely to attack you to try to escape.

"These men had families"

A line never spoken once in the actual episode. Not saying that they didn't have families, but I'm not going to cut this episode any slack for details it did not bother to cover. Maybe if Roga said he had a family that he left so he could volunteer to fight in a war he believed was the right thing to do, well, maybe Roga's motivation for escaping would make more sense than just acting like a generic criminal who just wanted to escape prison.

My bad. I actually wrote this without having seen it recently. The line I was thinking of was Picard's "They're your brother's, your son's". My general opinion still stands though - I don't think the writers need to dot every "i" and cross every "t" when it comes to background information, the audience are clever enough to fill these gaps.

I've only just purchased the blu-ray's, hence my mistake. I look forward to rejoining the rewatch.

Speaking of the blu-ray transfer - I loved the Angosian city. Was it always animated like that (little shuttle pods in the tubes)?

 

[Jeyl]

My general opinion still stands though - I don't think the writers need to dot every "i" and cross every "t" when it comes to background information, the audience are clever enough to fill these gaps.

I'm not saying we should know everything about a character, just that there has to be "something" to the character that fits with the their motivation that drives the story. Roga desperately wants to rejoin society. Ok, I get that. Now my next question is why? What's so special about rejoining a culture that willingly altered you for war and readily abandoned you when it was over? Did you have a job you enjoyed doing? Do you have a family? Did you have plans for yourself that you thought you could still pursue after you fought in the war? All we ever get is "We want our lives back. We want to come home." Yeah, well so do a lot of criminals who are still doing time in prison, and I bet there are a lot out there who have better reasons to rejoin society than Roga does.

 

[BillJ]

My general opinion still stands though - I don't think the writers need to dot every "i" and cross every "t" when it comes to background information, the audience are clever enough to fill these gaps.

I'm not saying we should know everything about a character, just that there has to be "something" to the character that fits with the their motivation that drives the story. Roga desperately wants to rejoin society. Ok, I get that. Now my next question is why? What's so special about rejoining a culture that willingly altered you for war and readily abandoned you when it was over? Did you have a job you enjoyed doing? Do you have a family? Did you have plans for yourself that you thought you could still pursue after you fought in the war? All we ever get is "We want our lives back. We want to come home." Yeah, well so do a lot of criminals who are still doing time in prison, and I bet there are a lot out there who have better reasons to rejoin society than Roga does.

Why does he need a reason other than he wants to rejoin society/go home? He committed no crime other than fighting a war for his people and being altered for that purpose.

 

[Jeyl]

Why does he need a reason other than he wants to rejoin society/go home? He committed no crime other than fighting a war for his people and being altered for that purpose.

There is nothing wrong with just wanting to rejoin society, it's just that the episode just doesn't do Roga's motivation any justice. As I've tried to convey in my earlier posts, there is nothing about Roga's character that has a genuine "want" to rejoin society outside of the fact that he just wants it. The confrontation at the Prime Minister makes Roga come off more like a desperate drug addict who wants to get his fix rather than someone who wants to come home.

 

[MikeS]

there is nothing about Roga's character that has a genuine "want" to rejoin society outside of the fact that he just wants it.

Is that not a good enough reason? There is also nothing in the episode to say why his character wouldn't want to rejoin society. Why would an ex-soldier not wish to rejoin society?

 

[BillJ]

there is nothing about Roga's character that has a genuine "want" to rejoin society outside of the fact that he just wants it.

Is that not a good enough reason? There is also nothing in the episode to say why his character wouldn't want to rejoin society. Why would an ex-soldier not wish to rejoin society?

Color me confused.

 

[Captrek]

I think Jeyl is just saying that it's difficult to relate to the character and to feel his struggle rather than just describe it. If that's what he's saying, I agree.

 

[Jeyl]

I think Jeyl is just saying that it's difficult to relate to the character and to feel his struggle rather than just describe it. If that's what he's saying, I agree.

It is, and thank you for helping me convey that.