Where's the M/AM reaction in TOS Enterprise?

[F. King Daniel]

"Elaan of Troyius" puts the main dilithium crystal in the middle of the engine room. If the nacelles were self contained, that would make no sense. Ditto the antimatter pod Scotty was messing around with in (I think?) "Lights of Zetar", and the times Scotty glances at the glow behind the mesh in engineering to guage ships' power

It may have been the original intent that the nacelles themselves be the power source, but even if so, that's not how it ended up on-screen.

 

[Patrickivan]

"Elaan of Troyius" puts the main dilithium crystal in the middle of the engine room. If the nacelles were self contained, that would make no sense. Ditto the antimatter pod Scotty was messing around with in (I think?) "Lights of Zetar", and the times Scotty glances at the glow behind the mesh in engineering to guage ships' power

It may have been the original intent that the nacelles themselves be the power source, but even if so, that's not how it ended up on-screen.

As part of the power distribution system, all that means is that the failed crystals in main engineering compromise major systems. It doesn't mean that the m/arcs for the warp drive system are not contained in the nacelles.

As for Scotty glancing behind the mesh... Well, he's not going to run up to a nacelle if main engineering is integrated into the whole power systems... That's why it's called engineering.

There are also references in TOS episodes the provides as much if not more instances where the nacelles contain the main power generation, or at the very least significant power generation. So that intent of having the nacelles containing power generation is indeed how it ended up on-screen.

The Doomsday Machine

SPOCK: I would say none, Captain. The energy generated by our power nacelles seems to attracts it. I doubt we could manoeuvre close enough without drawing a direct attack upon ourselves.

KIRK: Go.
WASHBURN: We made a complete check on structural and control damage, sir. As far as we can tell, something crashed through the deflectors and knocked out the generators. Somehow the antimatter in the warp drive pods has been deactivated.
KIRK: Deactivated? Scotty, could some kind of general energy dampening field do that, and would the same type of thing account for the heavy subspace interference?

Bread And Circuses

SPOCK: No doubt about it, Captain. The space debris comes from the survey vessel SS Beagle.
KIRK: Missing for six years, and now this junk in space.
SPOCK: Portions of the antimatter nacelles, personal belongings. Captain, no signs of bodies whatsoever.

By Any Other Name

SCOTT: I have opened the control valves to the matter-anti-matter nacelles. On your signal, I will flood them with positive energy.
KIRK: What?

 

[Robert Comsol]

There are also references in TOS episodes the provides as much if not more instances where the nacelles contain the main power generation, or at the very least significant power generation. So that intent of having the nacelles containing power generation is indeed how it ended up on-screen.

If I'm allowed (?) I'd like to add

The Ultimate Computer

SPOCK: M-5 appears drawing power directly from the warp engines, tapping the matter-antimatter reserves.
SCOTT: So now it has virtually unlimited power. Captain, what'll we do?

By Any Other Name

SCOTT: I have opened the control valves to the matter-anti-matter nacelles. On your signal, I will flood them with positive energy.
KIRK: What?

Indeed, WHAT?!?

Bob

 

[austen_pierce]

My vote is for the secondary hull due to the glow from behind the mesh in engineering whenever the engines strained. IFIRC this happened in multiple episodes.

 

[Boris Skrbic]

The April 1967 writer's guide is fairly clear: The two "outboard" nacelles contain matter and antimatter, a controlled intermixing of which creates the stupendous power needed. We are presently searching for an optical effect in, about, or between these nacelles which will make their spectacular potential seem more obvious to the eye. Since the document would've been known to the writing staff, no wonder the dialogue suggests the same.

 

[Patrickivan]

If I'm allowed (?) I'd like to add



Indeed, WHAT?!?

Bob

No- You take it all back. No additional input!

The April 1967 writer's guide is fairly clear: The two "outboard" nacelles contain matter and antimatter, a controlled intermixing of which creates the stupendous power needed. We are presently searching for an optical effect in, about, or between these nacelles which will make their spectacular potential seem more obvious to the eye. Since the document would've been known to the writing staff, no wonder the dialogue suggests the same.

Well put... That guide quote, paired with online dialogue, and concept drawings of the Enterprise are all canon, and therefore further validate the opinions of those in the Nacelles camp.

That said, if some want to believe otherwise, they can. I'm just hoping for fun information to support our respective positions. Nothing wrong with some good discussion... (Even if you who think it's in the main hull are wrong )

 

[Masao]

If I'm allowed (?) I'd like to add...

You're like a little kid that keeps hopping out of bed! No cookies for you!

My intention for this thread was to find out what people believed about how Enterprise works. But polls are kind of pointless if someone is trying to influence you as you answer the question.

The intention was not to provide another venue for you guys to throw facts and quotes at each other in yet another skirmish in some never-ending war. These types of situations always make bad episodes!

Fire away!

 

[Boris Skrbic]

But… belief is irrelevant. You need to examine the canon and derive a hypothesis that fits the facts. There is M/AMR in the nacelles and maybe elsewhere. Multiple M/AMR reactors, as opposed to the central one in TMP+, would best explain conflicting reports on the subject. Here's a possible outline:

1) In TOS they're extremely dangerous and must be kept in the nacelles, away from the crew, so the reactors are pretty much restricted to warp power generation. Later, engineers start experimenting with smaller reactors in the main body.

2) In TMP they move everything to the main body, in order to gain more power for other ship systems, but still with mandatory radiation suits.

3) Later, the shielding improves and no protective suits are needed.

 

[Robert Comsol]

@ Boris

Many thanks for that quote from the Writer's Guide I had been previously and completely unaware of. Looks like I could have saved myself the effort coming up with this thread.

@ Masao

What is the purpose of your poll as you seem to be keen that participants remain unaware of or have forgotten the original TOS dialogue? Just beliefs and assumptions to be useful for what?
Is it a sociological experiment to see how retroactive continuity influences our memory of what we (could have) learned originally?

In this case it might have been a good idea to say so first, as I'm confident you've noticed in the various Trek Tech related threads (e.g. Romulan Bird of Prey) that it's virtually impossible to confine the content of such a thread to one exclusive topic (which I don't necessarily think is a bad thing and rather appreciate and enjoy the fresh ideas and inspiration that come out of it).

If a topic revolves around taste or conflicting issues which have been abundantly discussed, a poll is useful to approximate which "side" apparently had the better arguments or to grasp the audiences taste. But I'm honestly unable to see the conflicting or taste element in your poll.

Bob

 

[Masao]

Bob: I don't hang out in this forum so am not up on all your very thorough and inspiring discussions. I explained the purpose of my poll several times, often in direct response to your complaints. Most posters understood. Your unwillingness or, I suspect, inability to understand is no longer my concern.

 

[Albertese]

Well! I voted for the third choice. Without wading through all the on-screen evidence, My firmly held opinion is that the main power generation took place in the nacelles; each nacelle having its own dedicated generator which was responsible for the fantastic energies needed to feed a power-hungry warp engine. There is a third much smaller M/AM reactor in the secondary hull which powers the rest of the ship and is somehow critical in the operation of the other two. Put another way, reactors 1 and 2 (up in the nacelles) each generate more power but are are slaved to reactor 3 (down in the engineering hull) to operate correctly.

In addition to these three main reactors, other batteries of fusion reactors would be found here and there throughout the ship. Most notably, associated with the ship's impulse engines.

That's my opinion at any rate, and it's how the system is reflected in my on-going Enterprise deckplans project.

--Alex

 

[jayrath]

If I may be allowed to haul in the original model, and how it appeared in '60s broadcast TV, something very odd was going on behind the nacelle domes. I never even saw the spinny things before cable TV (and its better reception), just an odd, multicolored, raging fire. When you look at photos of the insides of the model's nacelles, that was surely the intent; Christmas tree lights, yes, but endlessly refracted with shards of mirrors.

When I was a wee tot, watching it all in the very first reruns, often in black and white, I always assumed that the nacelle caps were windows onto the matter/antimatter anihilation. I still believe that.

Plus, that's a lot more fun than TNG's gurgling potbelly stove.

 

[T'Girl]

There is a third much smaller M/AM reactor in the secondary hull which powers the rest of the ship and is somehow critical in the operation of the other two.

Hmmm ... maybe the ones in the nacelles are basically "switched off" when the ship isn't in warp flight and the one in the secondary hull is constantly active. When the reactors in the nacelles are needed the secondary hull reactor is required to jump start the nacelles reactors.

This might explain what happened in The Naked Time, where Riley completely shut down the system.

 

[James]

It's in a room below the main engineering room shown on the show. Later on in the show they moved part of the warp core into engineering's floor. It could be seen in Elaan of Troyius when one of the klingon spies sabotaged the dilithium crystal assembly. The reaction chamber with crystals could also be seen in TAS.

 

[blssdwlf]

There is a third much smaller M/AM reactor in the secondary hull which powers the rest of the ship and is somehow critical in the operation of the other two.

Hmmm ... maybe the ones in the nacelles are basically "switched off" when the ship isn't in warp flight and the one in the secondary hull is constantly active. When the reactors in the nacelles are needed the secondary hull reactor is required to jump start the nacelles reactors.

This might explain what happened in The Naked Time, where Riley completely shut down the system.

That's how I think of it too.

 

[Admiral Archer]

My personal opinion on the location of the M/AM reactors is somewhat complicated. I have two theories:

A) The reactors are in the nacelles, and the engine room we all saw in the series was actually a Warp Nacelle Monitor room, accessed by a turbolift (similar to the control room seen in the TNG Season 7 episode "Eye of the Beholder"). This is supported by the fact that the engine room on the original Enterprise shows a long glowing shaft leading towards the aft section of the ship, which would have been impossible to fit in either the saucer or the secondary hull (in the case of the latter, there needs to be sufficient room for the shuttle bay). Below are two images that show the engine room of the original ship compared to the nacelle control room aboard the Enterprise-D.

B) The reactors are either in the saucer or the secondary hull after all, and the long shaft in the engine room was actually smaller than originally thought. This room could even have been an impulse control room, with the reddish glowing shaft being the impulse engines, and the main engine room in the secondary hull (where the M/AM reactors are) never having have been shown. This is supported by the original interior set model, which shows the engine room depicted on the series as being located off the main corridor in the saucer section.

 

[T'Girl]

the engine room on the original Enterprise shows a long glowing shaft leading towards the aft section of the ship

Problem with that is, in Immunity Syndrome when the ship lurched forwards, Kirk was thrown back towards the main doors leading into Engineering.

The "glowing shaft" doesn't lead aft, it leads forwards.

 

[Admiral Archer]

the engine room on the original Enterprise shows a long glowing shaft leading towards the aft section of the ship

Problem with that is, in Immunity Syndrome when the ship lurched forwards, Kirk was thrown back towards the main doors leading into Engineering.

The "glowing shaft" doesn't lead aft, it leads forwards.

Really? How weird. Well, I guess that nullifies my theories.

 

[Robert Comsol]

@ Admiral Archer (welcome to the BBS!)

Here's a link to another BBS page to show the location of the Season One "Engineering Control Room" in compliance with the actual Season One Studio set.

And here is the link to another BBS page to show the location of the Season Two warp or main sensor-deflector engine room, compliant with T'Girl's (and others) observations and compliant with the actual (different) Season Two studio set and original TOS footage from "Day of the Dove" (engineering hull exit point of alien entity).

The "cathedral" behind the grated wall opening in the engine room did also glow and pulsate in "Elaan of Troyius" while the ship was underway at impulse power / sublight only, so it doesn't necessarily indicate warp drive functions.

Bob

 

[James]

The glowing shaft is where the power transfer conduits are, in front of the main shuttlebay. It's never going to be proven otherwise.