General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?

[BillJ]

You're under the assumption that every craft is going to understand what a code seven-ten is. Plus, there could be times where someone is simply forced to go into the system due to damage or some other emergency.

It was idiotic not to have exceptions built into the treaty for non-combatants.

 

[BillJ]

In addition, Kirk was never really shown to be a regular rule-breaker in TOS.

 

[Melakon]

Eminair and Vendikar are simply sitting in the own system, telling everyone else to stay out in no uncertain terms.

When you put it that way, Eminiar VII sounds a lot like North Korea. Maybe the people of Vendikar were more reasonable.

 

[Anwar]

You're under the assumption that every craft is going to understand what a code seven-ten is. Plus, there could be times where someone is simply forced to go into the system due to damage or some other emergency.

It was idiotic not to have exceptions built into the treaty for non-combatants.

Well, wouldn't there be beacons set up saying "Listen, we aren't supposed to go in there."?

The Feds were the ones violating these worlds' Sovereignty, it's more or less a Grey area that the story doesn't draw much attention to.

 

[Galileo7]

I've never had the impression that Kirk and scott were bluffing, and believe that Scott would have indeed carried out Kirk's order if required.

Same here.

Agree.

 

[Grant]

Genocide!!

 

[Timo]

...Or, as originally defined, the killing of a lot of Jews (R. Lemkin, 1944). It's a pretty racist concept, actually, making some victims sound more important than others.

From that date on, it has been sort of anti-defined, coming to mean anything and everything from the negating of a biosystem to the making of a Star Trek movie the fans weren't expecting. Taken literally, Scotty wouldn't have killed a genus, as Eminians appeared to be your basic Homo sapiens just like so many "alien" species out there. From the looks of it, even their culture would probably have lived on, on Vendikar.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Gov Kodos]

It's not useless. The planet's threat to Federation shipping will come to an end. That's what they get for messing with greater powers. The fools were lucky they didn't get the chance to try this shit on the Klingons.

The problem being that they didn't have some type of waiver system built into their war "treaty" to cover such an eventuality. Kirk would have happily left but was forced into settling their war for them because of it.

Eminiar and Vendikar were not a threat to shipping. They posted a big "Do Not Enter. This Means You" sign in the form of Code 7-10, a code that is apparently an internationally know standard.

No one has to put up with being shot at their warnings be damned. Their gameboy war didn't have to target non-combatants. If they want to shoot at other folks, then they can expect those folks to shoot back.

 

[Grant]

Why do so many wimps want to pretend Kirk & Scott wouldn't destroy "...the entire inhabited surface of the planet!"

In TOS they were badass and took no guff. You shoot at us or hold hostage a few of our people and we will destory the surface of your world--that gets them off their butts and taking notice! Nothing like making them think of their women and children to make them give in.

 

[Opus]

Genocide!!

 

[Grant]

What's a real laugh is that scott says "all cities and installation have been fed into our fire control systems.."

Now presumably, they would NOT destroy the council chamber because if they did they might kill kirk & co. or because they would need to be sure Anon-7 would be alive to give in and agree to release kirk.

So in effect by ensuring that Anon-7 would be the last target destroyed--they gave him the power to let the world's cities and people die while safe in his council chamber next to his hostages.

What if he was one of those really crummy leaders who wouldn't mind seeing millions of his people die to test the resolve of an adversary?

"Okay, okay, i give up, now that you've killed millions and I'm about the only one left--you can have your captain."
"On the bright side we have met our quote as far as Vendikar is concerned."

Kirk was all concerned for the life of Mea, but that wouldn't stop him from wiping out millions to prove his point!

TOS= badass

Genocide!!

 

[Timo]

What if he was one of those really crummy leaders who wouldn't mind seeing millions of his people die to test the resolve of an adversary?

The cliched resolution to that would be the heroes taping the leader's defiant words and playing those back to his citizens, who would be less than willing to continue to support the leadership of the man who just called them "Worthless cattle destined to die anyway"...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[The Old Mixer]

It wouldn't have hurt the Eminians to just come out and tell potential visitors what the risks were, either. They were extremely coy about it, considering it was such serious business.

 

[Timo]

We don't have a very good idea of the true potential of visitations here. Perhaps Starfleet was the only organization at the time capable of sending ships in this system at all (mature superspecies notwithstanding, as they wouldn't have truck with Eminian silliness anyway)?

The likely mechanism of ship loss here, judging by all this Treaty Port talk, is that the two planets failed to assist ships in distress that sought refuge in the system. Basically, failing to help is an offense that gets you jailed regardless of privacy or property concerns; Starfleet's decision to slag the planets would probably have been met with resounding approval in the wider interstellar community.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[BillJ]

I'm sure that Scott would've liquified a few uninhabited areas first to see if he could get them to cry uncle.

 

[The Old Mixer]

^Basically what I was getting at. He could have targeted infrastructure more than populations, and effectively bombarded them back to the stone age without eradicating the population.

 

[Timo]

...We know Scotty was capable of firing with impunity: his threat continued to be in force after he had taken the ship outside the range of Eminian weapons. So there would have been no hurry as such. For all we know, GO24 always takes weeks to execute if only one starship is available!

It did take a pretty large fleet to actually slag a smallish planet's surface in "The Die is Cast", and this 24th century fleet of at least 20 ships and possibly more was estimated to need an hour for destroying the crust (although they ended up doing 30% of the job with their first volley already - go figure). But even at his most murderous, Scotty would probably have settled for simply destroying all the cities and leaving the mountain ranges be. And destroying just the essential infrastructure might not take much time at all.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Grant]

Scott + murderous = "destroy all the cities but leave mountain ranges unharmed"

TOS = badass

Genocide!!

 

[Lazergazer]

Blowing up a starship requires triple confirmation because there can be triple confirmation - i.e., all concerned parties are already there.

In a situation like this, there's no time to call up Starfleet for a chat or debate, much less "multiple methods of confirmation and cross checking". That is probably why they have a General Order.

Nothing about the way the episode was filmed made me think it was intended to be a bluff.

I never thought it was suppose to be a bluff. I never understood people who watched the episode that thought it was a bluff. I think it was more wishful thinking because they didn't want their heroes to be making those types of decisions.

I actually never thought it was a bluff but this thread got me thinking and I allowed for the possibility of a bluff. In fact, the more I think about it, the more a bluff makes sense. A captain has to have 2 other officers agree to set the auto destruct on a Starship but a simple order from him is enough to exterminate an entire planet? I don't think so.

If such an order actually exists, I would envision it coming from Starfleet with multiple methods of confirmation and cross checking and even then, it would require 2 other command officers to agree to it.

 

[Grant]

They are far from home and not always in contact with HQ--I see no reason they wouldn't give a stasrship captain the authority to wipe out a planet that took Fed hostages and force their way into the their space because they weren't providing assistance to damaged starships.

"Mommie why is the space ship destroying our city?" "Because our evil leaders are xenophobes who aren't decent enough to help those in distress."


TOS = badass