Section 31: The books vs. STID
- Thread starter Noddy
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I don't see any discrepancies. STID takes place 26 years after the timeline split anyway, so any inconsistencies that did exist could be easily enough explained. I'd say the version depicted in the movie is a little more overt in its activities, but I think that was forced by the circumstances of the story. Certainly Admiral Marcus's interest in Khan meshes well with S31's interest in Augments like Bashir and Ethan Locken.
Well, Sloan wasn't particularly secretive about S31 when he tried to recruit Bashir. Sure, he kept his true identity secret while testing Bashir, but then he told Bashir about S31 openly and let him tell his colleagues. And in the TNG S31 novel Rogue, the S31 agent who tried to recruit Lt. Hawk was quite open about the section. So it's not unprecedented for them to be open about who they are when they're trying to win someone's cooperation.
Besides, when Adm. Marcus told Kirk about S31, he probably didn't expect Kirk to return from the mission alive anyway. And given Kirk's reputation, if it had come down to his word against Marcus's, Kirk probably wouldn't have been believed.
One thing that I prefer about the 31 in Roddenberry's universe over the Abrams universe comes from the last episode with Sloan when Bashir and O'Brien are in his mind. Sloan says that there is no such "office" as what Bashir & O'Brien are "seeing" outside of his mind. Makes the universe a little more creepy.
Probably the big thing we can take away from STID is that, as far as that film seems to be concerned, 31 is not QUITE as autonomous as Sloan would have us believe. Marcus's lines to Kirk seems to imply that the Bureau answers to him--or more generally, Starfleet's Commanding Admiral.
Thus, the "autonomy" Sloan claims in DS9 could well be a kind of "plausible deniability" (which, indeed, is what many of us suspected for quite a while).
Thus, the "autonomy" Sloan claims in DS9 could well be a kind of "plausible deniability" (which, indeed, is what many of us suspected for quite a while).
My impression was that Marcus was heae honco of both Starfleet and Section 31. Even if he wasn't the latter when he became the former, with the kind of power he welded and his forceful personality, I can very much see him going from general member to policy-maker. I'm sure if their goals were incompatible, 31 would have found a way to dispose of him.
As for nuS31 being "too open" - Sloan told Bashir who merrily told everyone. No change there, IMO.
THE big change as far as I can tell, is Section 31 having an enourmous R&D facility beneath London. My memory is a little foggy, but I think Sloan made it clear to Bashir that 31 is made up only of people, with no bases of operations. Although he could of course have been lying. Spies have been known to do that...
^We're talking about events that were not only in alternate timelines, but 115 years apart. It is illogical to expect Section 31 to remain completely unchanged over such a large span of time.
The idea of a massive organization managing to keep its existence secret for centuries is completely absurd. The larger the conspiracy, the more inevitable its exposure becomes. So I've always felt that the only way Section 31 could conceivably endure as long as it has is if it remains dormant most of the time, and only becomes more active in times of major crisis, times when it believes its services are needed. There could even have been various instances where it's been dissolved and then recreated decades later by different people. So it wouldn't be this static, monolithic thing that's always exactly the same in any given year over more than two centuries. It would be a fluid concept, even a series of successive iterations of Section 31 arising in different generations and reassembled by different leaders with different ideas of how to organize and operate it.
Naturally the period after the destruction of Vulcan is going to be one of those times of major crisis when the people who've kept the flame of Section 31 alive would feel it needed to be mobilized again. As the head of Starfleet, Admiral Marcus could've certainly used his authority and resources to convert the London archive into a major Section 31-run research center. That's the version of Section 31 that would've emerged in that generation and timeline as a result of those specific circumstances and opportunities. In a different era and reality, with different people behind it and different circumstances shaping it, naturally Section 31 would manifest differently. It would have to be able to adapt and change, or it would be impossible for it to maintain any kind of secrecy.
The idea of a massive organization managing to keep its existence secret for centuries is completely absurd. The larger the conspiracy, the more inevitable its exposure becomes. So I've always felt that the only way Section 31 could conceivably endure as long as it has is if it remains dormant most of the time, and only becomes more active in times of major crisis, times when it believes its services are needed. There could even have been various instances where it's been dissolved and then recreated decades later by different people. So it wouldn't be this static, monolithic thing that's always exactly the same in any given year over more than two centuries. It would be a fluid concept, even a series of successive iterations of Section 31 arising in different generations and reassembled by different leaders with different ideas of how to organize and operate it.
Naturally the period after the destruction of Vulcan is going to be one of those times of major crisis when the people who've kept the flame of Section 31 alive would feel it needed to be mobilized again. As the head of Starfleet, Admiral Marcus could've certainly used his authority and resources to convert the London archive into a major Section 31-run research center. That's the version of Section 31 that would've emerged in that generation and timeline as a result of those specific circumstances and opportunities. In a different era and reality, with different people behind it and different circumstances shaping it, naturally Section 31 would manifest differently. It would have to be able to adapt and change, or it would be impossible for it to maintain any kind of secrecy.
Yes, it does. I really enjoyed that bit.
Well there's a huge difference between a lone agent telling a potential recruit and the ginormous USS Evil Overlord. The former, while not particularly subtle, doesn't pose a particular risk. A undercover agency that's been operating independent of the Federation since it's birth? Riiiight, I'm going to set you up with an appointment with the Counselor. Whereas the Vengeance is just... yeah subtle as a bull in a china shop. Even the most skeptical person is going to raise an eyebrow when that thing shows up on sensors, to say nothing of all the manpower and resources required to build something like that.
^Like I've been saying, different eras, different circumstances, different people in charge, and thus different approaches. I doubt the organization and policies of any government agency remain absolutely unchanged over the course of 115 years. The simple fact that the stories don't happen in the same century is all the explanation we need for why they portray the agency differently. It would be implausible if it didn't change over such a span of time, or between two different timelines.
My theory is that everyone knows what Section 31 is, but everyone thinks no one else knows and that it's a big secret, so no one mentions it.
I don't think Marcus would need to worry about if Kirk told anyone or whether they believed him or not as what he told him about Nu31 was pretty unthreatening.
Remember all marcus said about them was that they researched and developed weapons and defenses to possible threats to the federation, which isn't really a bad thing.
Hell, other than Marcus thawing out you know who and having him do his bidding, planning to destroy the Enterprise and kill everyone onboard, starting a war with the Klingons, and the original plan for dealing with "John Harrison" he kind of had a point.
I said that as well, although in less wordy terms, but I guess no need to acknowledge that is there.
Or, everyone knows but is too scared to mention it by name. Sort of like the IRS.
Haven't we seen L'Haan and her 31 agents operating out of some kind of headquarters in their novelverse appearances? I swear I remember reading her giving orders from an office somewhere while she was keeping track of whatever they were up to at the time.
Maybe 31 is secretly run by the plant people behind the Shatnerverse's Project Sign.
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