The curse of even Trek Films and the reboot - thought

[Hober Mallow]

You know what, of the 12 trek movies I can honestly say I like 12 of them.

None are great pieces of cinema (TWOK probably comes closest) but all are solid 3 or 4 star films in a series I consistently enjoy, and I could spend hours on the Internet criticising them, but I still find myself running through all the discs once a year or so!

I've seen "Nemesis" exactly once ten years ago on DVD.

 

[trevanian]

I'm not sure how much real control any director had over any of the TNG films. These movies really seemed to be driven from the top (Berman).

You have a point, but since Berman doesn't seem to ever set foot on set except for PR purposes, it only extends so far.

Also, on GEN, he wasn't really in the day-to-day loop; they had Bernie Williams riding herd on Carson (badly),

 

[Gojira]

I do like every Star Trek movie so I never bought into the curse of the even numbered movie baloney. Nemesis is the weakest of the bunch but I still do watch it from time to time.

 

[Smellmet]

I just don't get the hate for Nemesis, I rank it in the top 3 or 4, I know some of the plot is a bit contrived and silly (dune buggy sequence I'm talking to you) but the end battle is the best in all 12 films for me, and I enjoyed quite a lot of the character moments - the wedding in particular. I rank it alongside First Contact

For me just about everything in NEM is contrived badly. Picard BREAKS HIS PHASER RIFLE on one bad guy, making this tough field weapon unusable, then his 24th century holster -- which doesn't even have the secure functionality of a berns-martin triple drawer holster circa 1956 -- allows his other phaser to fall out and be left on the deck. Moments later, we have him able to rip a stanchion off the wall to conveniently impale min-whoosis. THAT'S ALL JUST IN THE SPAN OF A MINUTE OR TWO!

If the movie had been working on ANY thrusters, I wouldn't have been distracted by all of this till later, but the fact I noticed this all as it happened first run is a pretty marvelous indicator of the script's failings -- no surprise there -- and especially Baird's.

None of what you've just mentioned there bothers me, in fact I'd never really thought about them before, I know I'm in a minority but I thoroughly enjoyed the film and continue to do so, watch it at least once a year. Is it perfect? Not a chance. Are elements of it lifted from TWOK? Absolutely. Controversial one here: Should Data have died? Yes. Could the ending of the film been and his death been a little less depressing? I think so, I give the film 8/10

 

[StarMan]

Both Nemesis and Into Darkness have obliterated any notion of an odd/even curse.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

^ For you StarMan

 

[marksound]

As I rewatch the older films through the years, my tastes have changed. TWOK, TVH, TUC, and FCON used to be my favorites. Now I find myself enjoying TFF and INS as much as the others.

Age is a funny thing. Ok, not funny. But weird.

 

[ComicGuy89]

I think this curse is a decent indicator of what I think of the films, but it doesn't always apply. For example, I love The Search for Spock, but I'm not so big a fan of Nemesis. I thought Generations was a decent, if flawed movie. I also think the "curse" is eradicated with the previous two movies being rather good.

 

[Peach Wookiee]

A bit off-topic... those photos of the Enterprise and the Vengeance close together only heighten their similarities...

 

[BillJ]

A bit off-topic... those photos of the Enterprise and the Vengeance close together only heighten their similarities...

I don't know. Outside of being the same basic shape, they seem different in proportion and details.

 

[Hober Mallow]

Should Data have died? Yes. Could the ending of the film been and his death been a little less depressing? I think so, I give the film 8/10

Actually, this kinda highlights the problem I had with not being able to be engaged by the film. The death of Data should have been emotional for me, but it fell totally flat. I felt absolutely nothing about it or any other element of the film.

 

[Smellmet]

Dunno about that, it made me tear up

 

[trevanian]

Should Data have died? Yes. Could the ending of the film been and his death been a little less depressing? I think so, I give the film 8/10

Actually, this kinda highlights the problem I had with not being able to be engaged by the film. The death of Data should have been emotional for me, but it fell totally flat. I felt absolutely nothing about it or any other element of the film.

Yeah, agree completely. For me, the biggest failings of NEM and GEN aren't the obvious plotting & credibility issues with their storylines, but the fact that we have the deaths of Kirk and Data and both demises carry absolutely zero emotional import.

Kirk's death (both versions, but especially the release version) just seem like outtakes or rehearsals, with no credibility at all.

Data's just seems like they figured Goldsmith would find a way to elevate the most pedestrian staging/shooting to godhood the way he did most limp bits in Trek films. Christ, they could have stolen a page from the end of ARMAGEDDON and put in subliminal cuts of Data's life-experiences while the phaser fired, just ANYthing to connect the audience with this character in farewell. But Baird's idea of directing is just piling up tons of film to mess with it in post; he doesn't seem to have any idea of how to stage for film or what you need to do to when letting a scene play uncut for a time. He has no business behind the camera based on the three utterly lousy films he made, which besides Goldsmith scores have almost nothing to offer.

I don't blame Carson on GEN; I think he got what he could but that Shatner probably couldn't invest in the scene the way he needed to. Perhaps Meyer could have gotten a good death out of Kirk with 70 takes, running Shatner till he was exhausted enough to actually LOOK like he was dying, but given that they weren't going to go gory enough to really make him look like he fell a great distance AND had a bridge land on him, it was probably going to be an uphill battle to sell it anyway.

 

[energize6]

How many times I've seen it + whether or not I plan on ever watching it again.

TMP - 4/Yes
WOK - 4/Yes
SOS - 2/Yes
TVH - 2/Yes
TFF - 2/Maybe
TUC - 3/Yes

GEN - 2/No
FC - 2/No
INS - 1/No
NEM - 2/No

'09 - 4/F*CK NO
INT - 1/F*CK NO

 

[austen_pierce]

Should Data have died? Yes. Could the ending of the film been and his death been a little less depressing? I think so, I give the film 8/10

Actually, this kinda highlights the problem I had with not being able to be engaged by the film. The death of Data should have been emotional for me, but it fell totally flat. I felt absolutely nothing about it or any other element of the film.

Yeah, agree completely. For me, the biggest failings of NEM and GEN aren't the obvious plotting & credibility issues with their storylines, but the fact that we have the deaths of Kirk and Data and both demises carry absolutely zero emotional import.

Kirk's death (both versions, but especially the release version) just seem like outtakes or rehearsals, with no credibility at all.

Data's just seems like they figured Goldsmith would find a way to elevate the most pedestrian staging/shooting to godhood the way he did most limp bits in Trek films. Christ, they could have stolen a page from the end of ARMAGEDDON and put in subliminal cuts of Data's life-experiences while the phaser fired, just ANYthing to connect the audience with this character in farewell. But Baird's idea of directing is just piling up tons of film to mess with it in post; he doesn't seem to have any idea of how to stage for film or what you need to do to when letting a scene play uncut for a time. He has no business behind the camera based on the three utterly lousy films he made, which besides Goldsmith scores have almost nothing to offer.

I don't blame Carson on GEN; I think he got what he could but that Shatner probably couldn't invest in the scene the way he needed to. Perhaps Meyer could have gotten a good death out of Kirk with 70 takes, running Shatner till he was exhausted enough to actually LOOK like he was dying, but given that they weren't going to go gory enough to really make him look like he fell a great distance AND had a bridge land on him, it was probably going to be an uphill battle to sell it anyway.

Data's death was driven home adequately in the memorial service. It was cheapened by the B4 reset option.

Kirk deserved better. Yes, he dies alone, but there is zero sense of mourning. Just another day at the office for Picard.

 

[BillJ]

Kirk deserved better. Yes, he dies alone, but there is zero sense of mourning. Just another day at the office for Picard.

But why would Picard mourn him? He didn't know Kirk any better than a random redshirt (Kirk is my favorite character). What confused me was that they didn't seem to give a shit that the Enterprise was destroyed.

 

[austen_pierce]

Kirk deserved better. Yes, he dies alone, but there is zero sense of mourning. Just another day at the office for Picard.

But why would Picard mourn him? He didn't know Kirk any better than a random redshirt (Kirk is my favorite character). What confused me was that they didn't seem to give a shit that the Enterprise was destroyed.

Even if he hadn't recognized Kirk (which he did, by the way), I would have expected Picard to at least mention to his crew that he had help (he doesn't) from another Starfleet Captain. Add Kirk's legacy back in, and it's criminal.

 

[Lance]

^ Absolutely. We might justify that he did mention Kirk to them off-screen (of course), but the way it plays in the movie its like he just buries Kirk and then forgets all about him. For the audience that's an unsatisfying end to one of Star Trek's legacy characters (in fact, Kirk's false 'death' aboard the Enterprise-B at the start of the movie has got more emotional resonance than his actual death!).

 

[F. King Daniel]

Kirk deserved better. Yes, he dies alone, but there is zero sense of mourning. Just another day at the office for Picard.

But why would Picard mourn him? He didn't know Kirk any better than a random redshirt (Kirk is my favorite character). What confused me was that they didn't seem to give a shit that the Enterprise was destroyed.

He had just lost his entire family in a house fire. Next to that, a legendary starship captain and a spaceship are nothing.

 

[austen_pierce]

Kirk deserved better. Yes, he dies alone, but there is zero sense of mourning. Just another day at the office for Picard.

But why would Picard mourn him? He didn't know Kirk any better than a random redshirt (Kirk is my favorite character). What confused me was that they didn't seem to give a shit that the Enterprise was destroyed.

He had just lost his entire family in a house fire. Next to that, a legendary starship captain and a spaceship are nothing.

Shouldn't having just lost his entire family made Picard MORE sensitive to those around him making the ultimate sacrifice?