So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

[Timo]

Interestingly, I've been told there are indications that in the 24th century Starfleet keeps a Constitution-class starship "USS Republic" in service as a training vessel; something about the Connies makes them great teaching tools for cadets, maybe?

The "indications" come from the episode "Valiant", where even the ignorant civilian Jake Sisko has heard of the famous training ship Republic. No class identity is given for that ship, other than her being at least fifty years old. Might be Starfleet is now in the habit of building dedicated training ships that all are named Republic - indeed, the one from TOS "Court Martial" may have been a purpose-built training ship already, for all we know, carrying an already venerable name. Or then Starfleet for some other reason has chosen to employ a generic starship named Republic as a training ship again in the 24th century.

Assuming, of course, that the TOS ship either was a training ship by design or served in a training role. There's no direct evidence of either: any regular frontline starship might have filled the dramatic role of the ship where Ensign Kirk serves "several years" after graduation. We only indirectly know that Kirk should still have been associated with the Academy at Ensign rank (supposedly as an instructor), thus the Republic should have been somehow associated as well. But not necessarily as a training vessel.

I guess the only pressing reason to think that the Republic of the 24th century is not the one from Kirk's past is that Picard insists the Constitution class only exists as a single hull in a museum as of the 2360s. But he may well be speaking of the unrefitted version, and the Republic might have received a refit.

Or then the Republic from Kirk's past never had anything even remotely to do with the Constitution class. After all, we have no good reason to think she did.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[yenny]

Interestingly, I've been told there are indications that in the 24th century Starfleet keeps a Constitution-class starship "USS Republic" in service as a training vessel; something about the Connies makes them great teaching tools for cadets, maybe?

The "indications" come from the episode "Valiant", where even the ignorant civilian Jake Sisko has heard of the famous training ship Republic. No class identity is given for that ship, other than her being at least fifty years old. Might be Starfleet is now in the habit of building dedicated training ships that all are named Republic - indeed, the one from TOS "Court Martial" may have been a purpose-built training ship already, for all we know, carrying an already venerable name. Or then Starfleet for some other reason has chosen to employ a generic starship named Republic as a training ship again in the 24th century.

Assuming, of course, that the TOS ship either was a training ship by design or served in a training role. There's no direct evidence of either: any regular frontline starship might have filled the dramatic role of the ship where Ensign Kirk serves "several years" after graduation. We only indirectly know that Kirk should still have been associated with the Academy at Ensign rank (supposedly as an instructor), thus the Republic should have been somehow associated as well. But not necessarily as a training vessel.

I guess the only pressing reason to think that the Republic of the 24th century is not the one from Kirk's past is that Picard insists the Constitution class only exists as a single hull in a museum as of the 2360s. But he may well be speaking of the unrefitted version, and the Republic might have received a refit.

Or then the Republic from Kirk's past never had anything even remotely to do with the Constitution class. After all, we have no good reason to think she did.

Timo Saloniemi

They had never establish the age of the USS. Republic. All they had said, is that she was a old ship and she haven't left the solar system for over fifty years.

True she may or may not be a Constitution class starship, or the same ship that Captain James T. Kirk had serve on. But Ronald D. Moore, the person that had written the episode, believes that it is the same ship.

Here is the script itself. http://www.st-minutiae.com/academy/literature329/546.txt

 

[J.T.B.]

For the fourth time, it doesn't EXCLUDE destroying the enemy. That is simply not the GOAL of defensive action, which is why a defensive action that manages to destroy the enemy can still fail as a defensive action. That is the whole point of the distinction, in fact: an offensive action is taken for the singular goal of eliminating the enemy forces from the battlefield, one way or another. Defensive action is something you to do prevent your OWN elimination.

Offensive vs. defensive isn't a very useful distinction for a lot of naval combat. Without fixed objectives, fortifications etc. on "the battlefield" the meeting of fleet units in the open ocean can involve both and change back and forth. The best defense against an enemy fleet has often been said to be finding the enemy and destroying it, wherever it may be, which is what led to some criticism of Admiral Spruance at the Battle of the Philippine Sea.

Because the nature of torpedo attacks -- particularly in World War-II -- means this is necessarily a counter-attack, which is a type of offensive action. This is such, because firing a torpedo at the enemy immediately forces HIM to go on a defensive footing and take measures to avoid getting killed by your torpedo, either by firing deck guns in an attempt to detonate that torpedo or (if it's too deep or doesn't leave a trail) by taking evasive action to avoid it.

Here we can see the murkiness. For instance the High Seas Fleet at Jutland had its T crossed, abandoned action and basically ran for its life. That would seem to put it on the defensive according to the standard above, trying to prevent its own elimination. But its destroyer screen covers its escape with a torpedo attack, and the Grand Fleet is forced to evade. The defensive force taking offensive action and vice versa.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Offensive vs. defensive isn't a very useful distinction for a lot of naval combat.

You'd be surprised. The Mk-41 VLS system, for example, comes in three varieties: the "defensive" package, the "tactical" package and "strike" package. IIRC, the only difference between them is the length of the tubes: the "defensive" packs are short enough that they can only carry Standards and Sea Sparrows while the "strike" packages can carry Tomahawks and Harpoons. "Tactical," I believe, is the same as the defensive package except that it can carry extended range Standards and ASROCs.

Because the nature of torpedo attacks -- particularly in World War-II -- means this is necessarily a counter-attack, which is a type of offensive action. This is such, because firing a torpedo at the enemy immediately forces HIM to go on a defensive footing and take measures to avoid getting killed by your torpedo, either by firing deck guns in an attempt to detonate that torpedo or (if it's too deep or doesn't leave a trail) by taking evasive action to avoid it.

Here we can see the murkiness. For instance the High Seas Fleet at Jutland had its T crossed, abandoned action and basically ran for its life. That would seem to put it on the defensive according to the standard above, trying to prevent its own elimination. But its destroyer screen covers its escape with a torpedo attack, and the Grand Fleet is forced to evade. The defensive force taking offensive action and vice versa.

As I said, in a real battle a military unit will, in part or in whole, switch stances from offensive to defensive and back again multiple times depending on what's going on. As in the example I mentioned upthread: hapless A-4 pilot had to jump from offensive to defensive and wound up flying a toilet bowl where he was basically doing both at the same time.

Every time a starship raises its shields, takes evasive action, shoots down an enemy torpedo or tries to conceal itself, it is taking defensive action and/or assuming a defensive posture. When the same starship arms its weapons, locks weapons on target, fires them or moves to a firing position, it is taking offensive action and/or assuming an offensive posture. Sometimes you can sort of do both at the same time (pivot at warp two, give him all forward tubes as he passes) but in most cases you're considered to be on the offensive if your action is intended to directly neutralize the enemy.

 

[blssdwlf]

So you're saying that a "defensive action is something you do to prevent your OWN elimination" and you agree that "it doesn't EXCLUDE destroying the enemy." So why are you objecting to torpedoes used as defensive fire against an enemy ship as it doesn't contradict those parameters?

Because the nature of torpedo attacks -- particularly in World War-II -- means this is necessarily a counter-attack, which is a type of offensive action.

A Counter-Attack is defined as an attack against an enemy attacking force by a defending force which still makes it a defensive action and is listed as a "defensive tactic".

The nature of the defensive fire aka counter-attack isn't any different than getting your tailgunner to fire bullets at an attacking enemy plane or a soldier using his gun to defend his position against attacking enemy soldiers.

This is such, because firing a torpedo at the enemy immediately forces HIM to go on a defensive footing and take measures to avoid getting killed by your torpedo, either by firing deck guns in an attempt to detonate that torpedo or (if it's too deep or doesn't leave a trail) by taking evasive action to avoid it.

Forcing an attacking enemy ship to take evasive action or go on the defense can buy time for a defending ship to escape. I believe I said it here:

Aft torpedo tubes are more like aft tubes on a submarine to discourage pursuers when it needed to escape, IMHO.

Phasers have use as defensive weapons since they can be used to intercept enemy missiles and torpedoes and protect the ship itself. Photon torpedoes are primarily anti-ship weapons; you fire them, and the ENEMY has to go defensive if he wants to survive. If he doesn't want to survive, he might just ignore your torpedoes, take the hits on the chin, and immediately fire back without loosing the initiative.

Since a defensive action aka counterattack can destroy an attacking enemy ship then firing photon torpedoes in defense to destroy (or disable) an enemy ship is a valid defense.

Yes, and when it self-shutdown, they could run down to engineering to pull the connections and start restoring control of the ship. Scotty's automation didn't give them that option.

Pulling the plug on M5 wouldn't have given them control of the ship, it just guaranteed that M5 wouldn't "change its mind" and take control again. Kirk left himself open to attack on purpose, knowing that 1) he couldn't effectively fight back if he wanted to and 2) Commodore Wesley would probably spare the ship if he thought it was open to attack.

When M-5 was neutralized, they were regaining control of the ship. They had about 1 minute but they were doing something to restore control. At the very minimum, they were forcing the shields to stay down and working on communications at the same time.

KIRK: Intership communications. This is the captain speaking. In approximately one minute, we'll be attacked by Federation starships.
The M-5 no longer controls the ship, but neither do we control it. The M-5 has left itself, and us, open for destruction.
For whatever satisfaction we may get from the knowledge, our nineteen lives will buy the survival of over one thousand of our fellow starship crewmen.
...
SPOCK: The force field is gone, Captain. M-5 is neutralised.
SCOTT: System's coming back. I can give you power for the shields, sir.
KIRK: I need communications.
SCOTT: That'll take longer.
KIRK: Then cut power.
SCOTT: Sir!
KIRK: Cut power. Keep those shields down.
​

It probably IS the Jefferies Tube, or something similar to it. Either way, it's not actually part of the engine room; in the director's cut of TWOK we see Kirk and Saavik and Spock using a similar ladderway to climb between decks after leaving the transporter room because turbolifts are inoperative below C-deck.

A "similar" ladderway doesn't mean it is not part of engineering. Since the specific one Scotty and engineer are in has some sort of panel that the two seem to be working on when Scotty says they're finishing the automation we are left with that specific ladder is part of engineering.

... would have been an option BEFORE the Klingons hit them with a photon torpedo. The first thing Kirk says after they get hit is "emergency power!" they're in almost the same shape they were in right after Khan's torpedo strike.

Were they? Right after Khan's torpedo strike they still had power for a few phaser shots. Here the automation completely took them out of the game with apparently no chance for a manual override.

With a sizeable damage control team in engineering,

Kirk's damage control party was 4 guys, not counting McCoy.

Kirk might have been able to stall Kruge for a couple of minutes until his staff could run to engineering and try to get the power systems online, but that would only count for one last, suicidal gesture after which the Klingons would have blown him to bits. His "You have two minutes to surrender" was his hold card, and Kruge called his bluff.

It's Kirk - of course it'd work! Anyway, the point is that for 5 minutes (Surrender talks, David's death) + 2 minutes (Kruge) = 7 minutes of time they did nothing indicating that there was no way to override the automation.

Watch it in live action: the shadow is present both before and after the torpedo strike, and is therefore from an external light source (either Genesis itself or the central star in the system).

The light from the TORPEDO actually spills over the starboard side of the saucer -- no shading from the bridge module -- and partially washes out that shadow with the "secondary" explosions.

That spillover is from all the sparking. The hit location however should have eliminated that starboard shadow from the light source. Instead, we can see that it is glowing behind the hump that is in front of the impulse housing. This tells us it cannot be directly between the impulse and bridge because the slope would illuminate the impulse evenly.

Given that there are several planets that the cadets can practice exploring in system, like Earth or experiments from orbit like Venus, Mars, Jupiter, etc

Missions to which would have been handled by Academy annexes at those locations, serving proving grounds that had been setup ahead of time so the cadets would have a safe place to train (as NASA basically does with its neutral buoyancy tanks and the terrain simulators from the old lunar missions).

Which is all good and well but then that would negate the need for an actual training ship. Once they're done with training at these annexes then it would make sense to do it for real on an actual training ship

More importantly, Starfleet officers seem to spend most of their time exploring Earthlike planets in shirtsleeve environments. How many Earthlike planets exist in the Sol system?

One - Earth. And that's a good one since they have a known target to verify their sensor readings with and do training beam downs and exploration.

They would've called the Excelsior and have them fire the torpedo? But since they were carrying it and their mission was an escort mission then it stands to reason that the ship will normally carry scientific equipment. So the training ship would have carried scientific equipment along with her live torpedoes.

That would fit, IF Enterprise was being used as a training vessel in TUC. If it was being used as a technology testbed or something similar, then the analytic equipment would have been the prototype for the gear that was later fitted on the Excelsior.

We know from TWOK she carried live torpedoes. After some safe simulator training on Earth, they went on board a training ship with the real weapons. There is no reason to believe that the Enterprise as a training ship or Enterprise-A as an active duty ship would go out without actual equipment.

 

[Ensign_Redshirt]

I always figured that the Mirandas must be cheap to produce and/or operate. And at the same time they were probably considered pretty "reliable" and versatile, even though they were neither very powerful nor very fast.

Sort of a Volkswagen Beetle-type starship or the equivalent to the Russian Soyuz spacecraft.

Well, only that the Excelsior-class seemed to fulfill to a similar role too, as a larger version though (this makes the Excelsior-class the Toyota Corolla of space, I guess :-P ).

 

[Crazy Eddie]

When M-5 was neutralized, they were regaining control of the ship. They had about 1 minute but they were doing something to restore control. At the very minimum, they were forcing the shields to stay down and working on communications at the same time.

Which wouldn't have been an issue of M5 hadn't gone out of its way to sabotage the override system in the first place (and even re-route controls to prevent them from disconnecting it while it was still operational). Under normal circumstances, full vessel control would have been restored by the touch of a button.

A "similar" ladderway doesn't mean it is not part of engineering.

None of those ladderways are IN engineering (e.g. the engine room, where the intermix/energizers are located). If he's even inside the secondary hull, he is at least one bulkhead/compartment removed from it.

Since the specific one Scotty and engineer are in has some sort of panel

The panel is on the wall behind the ladder. We don't know if it's a feature of the tube itself or something the other engineer had installed there for some other reason.

For that matter, we don't even know if Scotty was working on the computer at the time Kirk called him. For all we know, he'd gone up to C-deck to repair an air leak while his two programming techs were finishing up the testing with the firmware upgrades.

Were they? Right after Khan's torpedo strike they still had power for a few phaser shots. Here the automation completely took them out of the game with apparently no chance for a manual override.

Except in Wrath of Khan they had a full crew aboard (albiet with trainees) which would have included techs in the phaser room and in engineering to make sure those "few shots" were even available. With those rooms empty, they have no options; at full power they MIGHT have been able to charge the phasers remotely, but with the mains out and the computers damaged, that would have to have been done manually.

That spillover is from all the sparking.

No it isn't. It's only present on the saucer at the exact moment of impact and then doesn't appear again.

The hit location however should have eliminated that starboard shadow from the light source.

It partially did:

And I'll remind you that your original claim was that the shadow was being caused by the TORPEDO. It clearly isn't, and you can plainly see the glow from the impact's secondary effects partially wash out the pre-existing shadow. That means the impact point was noticeably farther forward from the impulse engines, at least halfway to the bridge if not closer.

Which is all good and well but then that would negate the need for an actual training ship.

You wouldn't take a training ship to teach cadets how to conduct away missions or surveys on planetary bodies. You use a training ship to teach them how to run the ship. If you want to practice surveying a planet, escaping/evading hostile aliens, surviving in harsh environments or moving around in zero gravity/EVAs, there are a thousand places in the solar system you can go, all accessible by shuttlecraft. Even starship operations can be partially simulated -- this, too, we have actually seen -- so the only reason they need a training vessel is to experience running a real-live starship actually in space, outside of the simulator.

One - Earth. And that's a good one since they have a known target to verify their sensor readings with and do training beam downs and exploration.

For which reason, they would not need a TRAINING SHIP.

We know from TWOK she carried live torpedoes. After some safe simulator training on Earth, they went on board a training ship with the real weapons. There is no reason to believe that the Enterprise as a training ship or Enterprise-A as an active duty ship would go out without actual equipment.

That all depends on what the Enterprise-A was being used for. Unlike Excelsior, she was not seen being actively engaged in the "cataloging gaseous anomalies" missions, so it again goes to the question of what exactly the Enterprise-A was FOR. Training vessel or technology testbed or even Sol System Patrol Vessel are all possibilities, but each mission would imply a slightly different ship fitting.

 

[Praetor]

Well, the circumstances that led to the original Enterprise being a training ship are rather unclear... as are the particular circumstances of why the Enterprise refit was so special in the first place, given that we've never seen one exactly like it on screen.

I think you can interpret what is seen in TFF and TUC different viable ways, among them the notion that the ship was not active as a frontline vessel.

 

[blssdwlf]

When M-5 was neutralized, they were regaining control of the ship. They had about 1 minute but they were doing something to restore control. At the very minimum, they were forcing the shields to stay down and working on communications at the same time.

Which wouldn't have been an issue of M5 hadn't gone out of its way to sabotage the override system in the first place (and even re-route controls to prevent them from disconnecting it while it was still operational). Under normal circumstances, full vessel control would have been restored by the touch of a button.

But very comparable. M5's control sabotaged the override system but once disconnected, they were able to begin overriding the system. It's not that different from Scotty's automation system except that once it was disabled, there was no way for them to override it manually.

A "similar" ladderway doesn't mean it is not part of engineering.

None of those ladderways are IN engineering (e.g. the engine room, where the intermix/energizers are located). If he's even inside the secondary hull, he is at least one bulkhead/compartment removed from it.

Well these spaces were not in the engine room but were still part of engineering. The primary energy circuits, the main energizer, the service crawlway.

The panel is on the wall behind the ladder. We don't know if it's a feature of the tube itself or something the other engineer had installed there for some other reason.

For that matter, we don't even know if Scotty was working on the computer at the time Kirk called him. For all we know, he'd gone up to C-deck to repair an air leak while his two programming techs were finishing up the testing with the firmware upgrades.

Or he and his tech could be wiring up the automation from one system to another through these access points. Or that area is on another level of engineering.

Except in Wrath of Khan they had a full crew aboard (albiet with trainees) which would have included techs in the phaser room and in engineering to make sure those "few shots" were even available. With those rooms empty, they have no options; at full power they MIGHT have been able to charge the phasers remotely, but with the mains out and the computers damaged, that would have to have been done manually.

It's not much different than "The Doomsday Machine"? The ship was smashed and 4 guys were able to get the ship to function on manual controls. The only difference in TSFS is that they didn't try after Scotty's automation went dead suggesting no manual control was available once it went down.

No it isn't. It's only present on the saucer at the exact moment of impact and then doesn't appear again.

Well if it doesn't appear again it's not the point of impact and part of the sparking.

It partially did:


And I'll remind you that your original claim was that the shadow was being caused by the TORPEDO. It clearly isn't, and you can plainly see the glow from the impact's secondary effects partially wash out the pre-existing shadow. That means the impact point was noticeably farther forward from the impulse engines, at least halfway to the bridge if not closer.

And I'll remind you that the expanding blast is behind that hump in front of the impulse engine which has a shadow casting to the starboard side. If it was closer to the bridge it would be in front of the hump and not behind it.

You wouldn't take a training ship to teach cadets how to conduct away missions or surveys on planetary bodies. You use a training ship to teach them how to run the ship. If you want to practice surveying a planet, escaping/evading hostile aliens, surviving in harsh environments or moving around in zero gravity/EVAs, there are a thousand places in the solar system you can go, all accessible by shuttlecraft. Even starship operations can be partially simulated -- this, too, we have actually seen -- so the only reason they need a training vessel is to experience running a real-live starship actually in space, outside of the simulator.

So the only cadets that get any actual training on a real training ship is the bridge crew? The transporter crew, the maintenance crew that need to do EVAs and other non-ship crew are out of luck?

A live training ship would be training the cadets on doing what they're expected to do on a real ship. There would be no good reason to limit the ship to only a flying exercise.

One - Earth. And that's a good one since they have a known target to verify their sensor readings with and do training beam downs and exploration.

For which reason, they would not need a TRAINING SHIP.

Sure they would. To operate the sensors. Determine a beam down point. Transport down and back up. Practice, practice - from a real ship in orbit.

We know from TWOK she carried live torpedoes. After some safe simulator training on Earth, they went on board a training ship with the real weapons. There is no reason to believe that the Enterprise as a training ship or Enterprise-A as an active duty ship would go out without actual equipment.

That all depends on what the Enterprise-A was being used for. Unlike Excelsior, she was not seen being actively engaged in the "cataloging gaseous anomalies" missions, so it again goes to the question of what exactly the Enterprise-A was FOR. Training vessel or technology testbed or even Sol System Patrol Vessel are all possibilities, but each mission would imply a slightly different ship fitting.

I see two different issues here. The training ship Enterprise would have a standard but functional load of equipment since she had live torpedoes she would also have everything else working.

Since the Excelsior had the gear for the duration of Sulu's 3 year mission then the E-A carrying the same kind of gear would suggest that Starfleet was making that a standard load and/or the E-A was going to or already does patrol near the Klingons, IMHO.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

But very comparable. M5's control sabotaged the override system but once disconnected, they were able to begin overriding the system. It's not that different from Scotty's automation system except that once it was disabled, there was no way for them to override it manually.

That's supposition again. It is a complete unknown whether or not the ship could even be operated with that small a crew without the automation center in place; it stands to reason that it couldn't, or else Scotty wouldn't have bothered hooking it up.

It also goes unmentioned that the automation center may or may not be a standard feature aboard the Constitution class, something that can afford limited control of ship's systems in am emergency. In which case, the only thing Scotty would need in order to set it up would be to beam over and put in the password to activate it.

It's not much different than "The Doomsday Machine"? The ship was smashed and 4 guys were able to get the ship to function on manual controls.

They were able to get it to MOVE with manual controls, and then not particularly well. Eventually, they rigged it to maneuver with only a SINGLE person at the controls, which we have also seen half a dozen times in the total history of Star Trek.

So why did Scotty rig an automation center in the first place?

Well if it doesn't appear again it's not the point of impact and part of the sparking.

The "sparking" occurs after the impact, not during. Three things happen here:

1) Torpedo approaches Enterprise (note the shadow next to the impulse deck

2) Torpedo HITS Enterprise (note the entire starboard portion of the saucer AND THE BRIDGE DOME illuminated, as is the impulse deck; note the shadow is partially glared out but is still almost noticeable)

3) Sparkly after effects (note the shadow is still present but is again partially glared out be the sparks).

The impact point cannot be to port of the impulse deck, because if it was the bridge would cast a shadow on the starboard side of the saucer at the moment of impact (it clearly does not), as seen in the second image. More importantly, Kruge's torpedo is only visible for all of four frames, during which time it crosses in front of the bridge, from right to left, immediately before impact.

From the camera's point of view, the torpedo could not have passed in front of the bridge AND hit saucer on the port side; the explosion certainly wouldn't have illuminated the STARBOARD side of the bridge dome, as it clearly does in slowmo.

And I'll remind you that the expanding blast is behind that hump in front of the impulse engine which has a shadow casting to the starboard side.

What does that prove since that shadow was already present before the torpedo even hit them?

So the only cadets that get any actual training on a real training ship is the bridge crew? The transporter crew, the maintenance crew that need to do EVAs and other non-ship crew are out of luck?

Quite the opposite, in fact. The whole reason for having a training mission is so that all of the cadets learn how to do their jobs under shipboard conditions: how to do an EVA on a starship in deep space, how to file reports to a shipboard department head, how perform routine maintenance in a crawlspace, how to troubleshoot a bad guidance system on a torpedo using the ship's own equipment (FYI: one of my favorite odd jobs) and so on. It's a chance to get out of the simulator and into the real deal. Having the crew go on surface excursions -- away from the ship into what could only be yet another controlled/simulated environment -- would defeat the whole purpose of a training mission.

Besides, a lot of the equipment they'd have on board for such a mission would be specialized for training purposes in particular. The Navy does this all the time with recoverable munitions -- particularly torpedoes -- and sometimes fitting out surface vessels or submarines with extra components that allow them to realistically simulate major battle damage for the trainees to repair. Starfleet's all about realism on these trips, which is part of the reason why their simulators often burst into flames when the cadets screw up; realism in a safe environment is fairly difficult to achieve and would require equipment far more specialized than most starships actually carry.

Since the Excelsior had the gear for the duration of Sulu's 3 year mission then the E-A carrying the same kind of gear would suggest that Starfleet was making that a standard load and/or the E-A was going to or already does patrol near the Klingons, IMHO.

Which begs the question: What was Enterprise doing in Spacedock again, with Kirk and crew three months from retirement, and inexplicably in need of a helmsman? That, to me, always suggested that Kirk pretty much grabbed his entire bridge crew -- Spock et al -- from the Academy faculty lounge, kicked off (most of) the cadets and then went on his mission with a volunteer helmsman who may or may not have just finished training on that very same ship two semesters ago.

 

[Timo]

Valeris probably wasn't grabbed or otherwise decided upon by Kirk, as she was Cartwright's inside gal... The dramatically likely turn of events here would be that the previous helmsman met with a force majeure that wasn't as innocent as it sounded. Although Valeris could also simply have been dictated upon Kirk, or infiltrated into Spock's inner circle long in advance (Spock was in the process of betraying Starfleet to the Klingons, as far as Cartwright was concerned).

James "Nixon" Kirk was quite probably given the clearance to kick out the ship's bridge officers, so that he and he alone could show the Klingons the hot end of the phasers / act as the perfect scapegoat. That as such wouldn't tell us whether the ship was until then crewed for a standard exploration/defense mission, serving as a training ship, or cold-rotting in long term storage - or even being displayed as a museum piece.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Crazy Eddie]

We can, however, rule out "standard mission" because of Kirk's circumstances: he's on Earth, three months from retirement, and has to move back into his quarters and unpack for this insane mission Spock just volunteered him for. Meanhile, Scotty just bought a boat, Uhura's supposed to be doing a seminar at the Academy and Bones is wondering where Sulu is (has either forgotten or is unaware that Sulu is now commanding the Excelsior).

This all suggests the "crew of the Enterprise" haven't been together ON the Enterprise in quite some time, assuming they've even been together at all (McCoy, at least, has not) and have been involved in a whole bunch of other non-starship related things in recent months. Three months from retirement, they are not about to start a brand new deep-space exploration mission and they're certainly not just coming BACK from one.

So I'm thinking that they're not a "crew" at that moment so much as a loose association of senior officers who continue to find themselves in highly influential positions; Kirk and Uhura (and possibly Spock) are still instructors at the Academy, Chekov is either between assignments or getting ready for his next command (First choice for Enterprise-B with Harriman as backup?) Bones is off somewhere being Bones. It's not even certain that they've been together on the Enterprise since the Sha Ka Ree fiasco; considering the anomalously high ranks of the entire bridge crew at this point, it's pretty unlikely that they were.

 

[137th Gebirg]

Bones is wondering where Sulu is (has either forgotten or is unaware that Sulu is now commanding the Excelsior).

Seeing how he and his tricorder have completely forgotten Klingon anatomy at the most inopportune of times, I don't find this the least bit surprising. I love TUC as a film, but it had some really serious continuity problems.

 

[Timo]

We can, however, rule out "standard mission"

...For the hero crew, yes. The ship, on the other hand, may have been on a "standard mission" just two weeks ago, with 415 of her crew still the same when Kirk comes aboard and launches the definitely nonstandard mission of escorting Gorkon to Earth.

So I'm thinking that they're not a "crew" at that moment so much as a loose association of senior officers who continue to find themselves in highly influential positions

Very much agreed.

Kirk and Uhura (and possibly Spock) are still instructors at the Academy

Or then not. There was nothing Academy-related about Kirk in either ST5 or ST6, and while Uhura may have been part of the regular crew of the schoolship Enterprise in ST2, this is not confirmed. Whether her seminar would be related to the Academy, or even to Starfleet at all, is unknown.

Chekov is either between assignments or getting ready for his next command

Or then part of the regular crew of the E-A, as he is basically the only one who isn't indicated not to be such.

(First choice for Enterprise-B with Harriman as backup?)

Hmm. If Starfleet wanted somebody from Kirk's posse for the E-B (beyond the photo-op), why not take Kirk? It's not as if he's past the retirement age yet or anything.

Bones is off somewhere being Bones.

He is out of the loop regarding Sulu, suggesting he might indeed be removed from daily Starfleet activities, but that's basically his only counterindication to being part of the regular E-A crew. And Kirk's retort about it being "Captain Sulu" now should be taken to indicate that Bones has slept past Sulu's promotion somehow - but an obvious way for that to happen is having Bones be somewhere far away from Earth, which might mean he has been aboard the E-A exploring the outer reaches of the known.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Timo]

Seeing how he and his tricorder have completely forgotten Klingon anatomy at the most inopportune of times, I don't find this the least bit surprising.

Hmm. As far as I know, Bones never treated a Klingon onscreen before this movie. And his tricorder only scanned Arne Darvin, who had supposedly been altered somehow to pass superficial muster.

"Errand of Mercy": no Bones action with Klingons.
"Trouble with Tribbles": only the Darvin scan.
"Friday's Child": no opportunity to study the Klingon.
"A Private Little War": no opportunity to study the Klingon.
"Day of the Dove": Bones busy with his own crew, but everybody rendered immortal and confused anyway; not a great learning opportunity.
ST:TMP: no opportunity to study Klingons.
ST3: no studying or treating of Klingons, and his marbles were pouched elsewhere anyway.
ST5: no studying or treating of Klingons that we could see, unless there were some hangover cases or STDs or whatnot after the big party.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mysterion]

Interestingly, I've been told there are indications that in the 24th century Starfleet keeps a Constitution-class starship "USS Republic" in service as a training vessel; something about the Connies makes them great teaching tools for cadets, maybe?

The "indications" come from the episode "Valiant", where even the ignorant civilian Jake Sisko has heard of the famous training ship Republic. No class identity is given for that ship, other than her being at least fifty years old. Might be Starfleet is now in the habit of building dedicated training ships that all are named Republic - indeed, the one from TOS "Court Martial" may have been a purpose-built training ship already, for all we know, carrying an already venerable name. Or then Starfleet for some other reason has chosen to employ a generic starship named Republic as a training ship again in the 24th century.

Assuming, of course, that the TOS ship either was a training ship by design or served in a training role. There's no direct evidence of either: any regular frontline starship might have filled the dramatic role of the ship where Ensign Kirk serves "several years" after graduation. We only indirectly know that Kirk should still have been associated with the Academy at Ensign rank (supposedly as an instructor), thus the Republic should have been somehow associated as well. But not necessarily as a training vessel.

I guess the only pressing reason to think that the Republic of the 24th century is not the one from Kirk's past is that Picard insists the Constitution class only exists as a single hull in a museum as of the 2360s. But he may well be speaking of the unrefitted version, and the Republic might have received a refit.

Or then the Republic from Kirk's past never had anything even remotely to do with the Constitution class. After all, we have no good reason to think she did.

Timo Saloniemi

I don't think that the training ship Republic is a Constitution class vessel. Or at least there is no reason it has to be. Certainly, the hull number in the 1300's would seem to indicate that it is not. I also believe that the Republic in the TNG/DSN/VGR era is likely the same as the one mentioned in the TOS era.

USS Republic is probably a ship similar in circumstance to the USCGC Eagle: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USCGC_Eagle_(WIX-327)

As a training ship, it doesn't need to be a top-of-the-line vessel. It's purpose is to give midshipmen their first exposure to a shipboard environment and routine. Basic seamanship (starmanship?) sort of stuff. They'll learn all the whiz-bang techie stuff later on at the Academy.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Whether her seminar would be related to the Academy, or even to Starfleet at all, is unknown.

How could she be charing a seminar AT the Academy that isn't RELATED to the Academy?

Or then part of the regular crew of the E-A, as he is basically the only one who isn't indicated not to be such.

Except he has a rank of commander at this point and has for several years already. At his last assignment, he was first officer on Reliant. His posting on Enterprise, like Sulu's posting, is basically a temporary assignment due to a sudden emergency on a ship that is barely spaceworthy in the first place. We KNOW Sulu went back to his regular duties afterwards, so did Chekov go back to languishing in obscurity in James T. Kirk's shadow?

(First choice for Enterprise-B with Harriman as backup?)

Hmm. If Starfleet wanted somebody from Kirk's posse for the E-B (beyond the photo-op), why not take Kirk? It's not as if he's past the retirement age yet or anything.

Past retirement age or not, Kirk has ALREADY retired. If you go by the Shatnerverse novels, his not getting the Enterprise-B is the REASON he retired.

But if Kirk has a point and "galloping among the cosmos is a game for the young," then Chekov has both the benefit of youth AND several dozen years of deep space experience. Considering Sulu's daughter also managed to land a spot at the helm console, I don't see him getting passed over for the Enterprise-B unless he specifically declined the offer or was otherwise handed a more prestigious assignment elsewhere.

He is out of the loop regarding Sulu, suggesting he might indeed be removed from daily Starfleet activities, but that's basically his only counterindication to being part of the regular E-A crew. And Kirk's retort about it being "Captain Sulu" now should be taken to indicate that Bones has slept past Sulu's promotion somehow - but an obvious way for that to happen is having Bones be somewhere far away from Earth, which might mean he has been aboard the E-A exploring the outer reaches of the known.

Unlikely. This is BONES we're talking about; he doesn't particularly enjoy space travel and he enjoys transporters even less. The only reason he stayed on the Enterprise as long as he did was out of loyalty to Kirk and his shipmates; it would be completely out of character for him to voluntarily go into deep space WITHOUT said shipmates.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

USS Republic is probably a ship similar in circumstance to the USCGC Eagle: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USCGC_Eagle_(WIX-327)

That would seem to support the idea of it being a Constitution class, no? Considering the Constellation already had a hull number of 1017 and appears to be a Constitution herself.

As a training ship, it doesn't need to be a top-of-the-line vessel. It's purpose is to give midshipmen their first exposure to a shipboard environment and routine. Basic seamanship (starmanship?) sort of stuff. They'll learn all the whiz-bang techie stuff later on at the Academy.

Most of which I had in mind when I was thinking of the Enterprise as a training vessel; that more or less implies that the Constitution class itself is woefully obsolete even by 23rd century standards and by the 24th is basically a museum piece.

The more significant thing is that we've never see any Constitution class ships in the refit configuration other than the Enterprise and the Enterprise-A. We've seen multiple examples of virtually every other ship class, including both Excelsior versions, multiple Miranda versions, three different Constellations, etc. Of the refit Constitutions, we've only ever seen two, and BOTH of them were named Enterprise. It strikes me that, based purely on what we have SEEN, there is no reason to believe that ANY of the other Constitutions received a refit and were instead decommissioned en masse in favor of the Mirandas and/or Constellations. It's not even certain the Enterprise-A was a refit conversion; considering its sorry condition in TFF, it's just as possible it was an unfinished engineering/structural test article that was never intended to fly but got slapped together at the last minute for PR purposes (not unlike how NASA managed to replace the Challenger in short order using mostly spare parts).

 

[blssdwlf]

But very comparable. M5's control sabotaged the override system but once disconnected, they were able to begin overriding the system. It's not that different from Scotty's automation system except that once it was disabled, there was no way for them to override it manually.

That's supposition again. It is a complete unknown whether or not the ship could even be operated with that small a crew without the automation center in place; it stands to reason that it couldn't, or else Scotty wouldn't have bothered hooking it up.

Which I point back to "The Doomsday Machine". We know from "The Ultimate Computer" that a crew of 20 can't run the Enterprise under normal conditions. However, under emergency conditions, a crew of 4 in "The Doomsday Machine" can get a crippled ship to move, fire and have shields.

The problem isn't why Scotty hooked up the automation center but whether it could be manually overridden when broken. Since Scotty hooked it up in a manner that did not account for combat it tells us that it was jury-rigged and not a final repair. They really needed that 2 weeks for refitting to complete the repairs and replace damaged equipment.

1) Torpedo approaches Enterprise (note the shadow next to the impulse deck

2) Torpedo HITS Enterprise (note the entire starboard portion of the saucer AND THE BRIDGE DOME illuminated, as is the impulse deck; note the shadow is partially glared out but is still almost noticeable)

The whole back half of the saucer is lit up because of the glow from the expanding gas that wraps around the back of the saucer. That isn't indicative of where the hit is.

3) Sparkly after effects (note the shadow is still present but is again partially glared out be the sparks).

And that is where the problem comes in for an impact directly between the impulse engine and bridge. The front of the impulse deck would be lit continually and that shadow that is partially lightened should be continually lightened. However, it is not continually lit as you can see in my previous screen shot. The majority of the time that shadow remains dark pointing to a hit on the port side of the impulse deck.

The impact point cannot be to port of the impulse deck, because if it was the bridge would cast a shadow on the starboard side of the saucer at the moment of impact (it clearly does not), as seen in the second image.

Regardless of a hit directly behind or port side, it would not cause a new shadow to be cast by the bridge as its too weak to completely eliminate the shadow of the impulse deck.

More importantly, Kruge's torpedo is only visible for all of four frames, during which time it crosses in front of the bridge, from right to left, immediately before impact.

From the camera's point of view, the torpedo could not have passed in front of the bridge AND hit saucer on the port side;

Sure it can. You can see the port side of the impulse deck from that camera angle so even though it crosses the bridge it is in the same line of sight of the camera. You'd have something if the bridge obscured the port-side of the impulse deck though.

the explosion certainly wouldn't have illuminated the STARBOARD side of the bridge dome, as it clearly does in slowmo.

That's the gas cloud that is illuminating the back half of the saucer, including the bridge.

What does that prove since that shadow was already present before the torpedo even hit them?

Since it doesn't change the majority of time then the impact point isn't in front of the impulse deck.

So the only cadets that get any actual training on a real training ship is the bridge crew? The transporter crew, the maintenance crew that need to do EVAs and other non-ship crew are out of luck?

Quite the opposite, in fact. The whole reason for having a training mission is so that all of the cadets learn how to do their jobs under shipboard conditions: how to do an EVA on a starship in deep space, how to file reports to a shipboard department head, how perform routine maintenance in a crawlspace, how to troubleshoot a bad guidance system on a torpedo using the ship's own equipment (FYI: one of my favorite odd jobs) and so on. It's a chance to get out of the simulator and into the real deal.

Operating a transporter to select a beam down point to beam a survey team down and retrieving them would be one of the things a cadet crew would need to practice on a ship.

Having the crew go on surface excursions -- away from the ship into what could only be yet another controlled/simulated environment -- would defeat the whole purpose of a training mission.

So you believe that it's okay to do learn how to do the real things from a ship except for a beam down and survey which is done from a ship in actuality? .

Besides, a lot of the equipment they'd have on board for such a mission would be specialized for training purposes in particular. The Navy does this all the time with recoverable munitions -- particularly torpedoes -- and sometimes fitting out surface vessels or submarines with extra components that allow them to realistically simulate major battle damage for the trainees to repair. Starfleet's all about realism on these trips, which is part of the reason why their simulators often burst into flames when the cadets screw up; realism in a safe environment is fairly difficult to achieve and would require equipment far more specialized than most starships actually carry.

TWOK pretty much shows that a training ship carries the actual equipment and not fake training equipment. Otherwise damage control and firing back at Khan would be impossible. The equipment to equip the team to beam over to Regula 1 would've been not present. Instead a training ship like the Enterprise is the real deal.

Since the Excelsior had the gear for the duration of Sulu's 3 year mission then the E-A carrying the same kind of gear would suggest that Starfleet was making that a standard load and/or the E-A was going to or already does patrol near the Klingons, IMHO.

Which begs the question: What was Enterprise doing in Spacedock again, with Kirk and crew three months from retirement, and inexplicably in need of a helmsman? That, to me, always suggested that Kirk pretty much grabbed his entire bridge crew -- Spock et al -- from the Academy faculty lounge, kicked off (most of) the cadets and then went on his mission with a volunteer helmsman who may or may not have just finished training on that very same ship two semesters ago.

The status of the bridge crew of the Enterprise need not indicate the status of the Enterprise herself. If the Enterprise was not considered able to protect the Klingon delegation 900 light years to Earth against Klingons or Earth ships trying to disrupt the talks then she would not have been sent. They could have easily had Kirk take over the Excelsior or another ship if the Enterprise was not up to the task.

C in C: Well, there are Klingons who feel the same way about the peace treaty as yourself and Admiral Cartwright. But they'll think twice about attacking the Enterprise under your command.
​

 

[blssdwlf]

Most of which I had in mind when I was thinking of the Enterprise as a training vessel; that more or less implies that the Constitution class itself is woefully obsolete even by 23rd century standards and by the 24th is basically a museum piece.

If the Enterprise was obsolete she wouldn't have been sent to escort the Klingon delegation to Earth. And not all training ships are obsolete as the Valiant in DS9 was one of the newer ships.