Starship Size Argument™ thread

[Flake]

WTF is going on with artificial gravity then when in every Star Trek episode the crew are thrown all over the place by various jolts to the ship?

WTF is going on here:

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8HccXIseTE[/yt]

Ship spiralling out of control leads to havoc & mayhem on the bridge of Voyager. Where was your evolved scientific reasoning then?!

The line must be drawn here.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

Exactly!, the film has the Enterprise randomly decompressing from the damage, moving debris hitting itself all around, Vengeance pummeling her etc, all sorts of imparted momentum.

I suggest you read up on momentum, work, and impulse (google them), and then reconsider your argument.

Where was your evolved scientific reasoning then?!

The line must be drawn here.

I didn't waste my time with that crap.

 

[SeerSGB]

Generations: The shockwave from the stardrive section explosion pushes the saucer into crashing into the planet. Same reason can be used from the massive explosion of mega-trops on the Vengeance.

 

[Kemaiku]

Generations: The shockwave from the stardrive section explosion pushes the saucer into crashing into the planet. Same reason can be used from the massive explosion of mega-trops on the Vengeance.

The damaged portion of the saucer is right into the impulse deck, maybe the engines can't fully disengage and are pushing slightly?

 

[SeerSGB]

Generations: The shockwave from the stardrive section explosion pushes the saucer into crashing into the planet. Same reason can be used from the massive explosion of mega-trops on the Vengeance.

The damaged portion of the saucer is right into the impulse deck, maybe the engines can't fully disengage and are pushing slightly?

Actually, I'd have to look. But if they're burning she's flying.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

Generations: The shockwave from the stardrive section explosion pushes the saucer into crashing into the planet. Same reason can be used from the massive explosion of mega-trops on the Vengeance.

One could argue that a warp core breach on a giant starship (huge matter-antimatter explosion) is orders or magnitude above several torpedoes detonating... and they'd probably be correct. The radiation pressure from the former would be much greater.

But in the end: Generations was shit writing. So there you go. I also hate Generations. Can you get off my back now?

 

[Kemaiku]

Generations: The shockwave from the stardrive section explosion pushes the saucer into crashing into the planet. Same reason can be used from the massive explosion of mega-trops on the Vengeance.

The damaged portion of the saucer is right into the impulse deck, maybe the engines can't fully disengage and are pushing slightly?

Actually, I'd have to look. But if they're burning she's flying.

They're fired up and fully red the entire time, her drive is online but badly damaged, it could be misfiring.

 

[Flake]

Exactly!, the film has the Enterprise randomly decompressing from the damage, moving debris hitting itself all around, Vengeance pummeling her etc, all sorts of imparted momentum.

I suggest you read up on momentum, work, and impulse (google them), and then reconsider your argument.

Where was your evolved scientific reasoning then?!

The line must be drawn here.

I didn't waste my time with that crap.

Well therein lies the problem, I have no idea how much Star Trek you have seen but if it is just the reboot only then you are missing the point here. Star Trek is littered with such inaccuracies and has no problem ignoring science if it means a more entertaining episode/movie, its just explained away with technobabble - something mostly absent from STID.

Can't transport matter because of the heisenberg uncertainty principle? Easy! Just install a heisenberg compensator!

 

[SeerSGB]

The damaged portion of the saucer is right into the impulse deck, maybe the engines can't fully disengage and are pushing slightly?

Actually, I'd have to look. But if they're burning she's flying.

They're fired up and fully red the entire time, her drive is online but badly damaged, it could be misfiring.

Just watched: Yeppers, they're lit. So there's some pressure right there.

Generations: The shockwave from the stardrive section explosion pushes the saucer into crashing into the planet. Same reason can be used from the massive explosion of mega-trops on the Vengeance.

One could argue that a warp core breach on a giant starship (huge matter-antimatter explosion) is orders or magnitude above several torpedoes detonating... and they'd probably be correct. The radiation pressure from the former would be much greater.

But in the end: Generations was shit writing. So there you go. I also hate Generations. Can you get off my back now?

So when you call "bullshit" on something that every other show and movie in the franchise is guilty off, we're just to let it pass without comment? So, at the least, STID is no worse than Generations.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

Well therein lies the problem, I have no idea how much Star Trek you have seen but if it is just the reboot only then you are missing the point here.

I'm going to guess that I've been a fan probably for longer than you've been alive, through every incarnation of ST. I gave up on DS9, Voyager, and Enterprise through fatigue (and real life taking over). The episodes of TOS were at least written by competent sci-fi authors, and had a mild modicum of veracity.

The problem with ST09 and STiD is that they were written by hacks who had no understanding of simple science. I'm willing to forgive some of it in the interests of mindless entertainment (e.g. Lost), but I really expect a feature film to hire some science advisors.

 

[SeerSGB]

Well therein lies the problem, I have no idea how much Star Trek you have seen but if it is just the reboot only then you are missing the point here.

I'm going to guess that I've been a fan probably for longer than you've been alive, through every incarnation of ST. I gave up on DS9, Voyager, and Enterprise through fatigue (and real life taking over). The episodes of TOS were at least written by competent sci-fi authors, and had a mild modicum of veracity.

The problem with ST09 and STiD is that they were written by hacks who had no understanding of simple science. I'm willing to forgive some of it in the interests of mindless entertainment (e.g. Lost), but I really expect a feature film to hire some science advisors.

Science advisors don't automatically make either a more scientifically accurate film or better film. Film is a visual medium and "This looks cool, let's do this" will always win over any a science advisor has to say.

As for TOS: I love TOS, but science wise, it's about on par with later day Trek and the reboot films. Looks cool wins over accurate. Hell, apply real science and there's no way for Spock to be alive.

 

[Kemaiku]

Oh here we go with the TOS is some holy canon bullshit again. How did Fry put it? "79 episodes, about 30 good ones.".

It's the same aging, cliched, heavy handed nonsense as a lot of 60's television and suffers from all the same basic problems as any Scifi.

And just because you've beed decaying longer of the rest of us, does not make your moaning and complaining any more relevant.

You pick on things that every version of Star Trek has suffered from. And please, scientific accuracy from a series with solar system sized bacteria and planet killing dildos? yeah, not really going to fly here.

 

[Flake]

I agree the science is shit but is it not possible there is some fantastical 23rd century explanation that can be pulled out of a screenwriters ass here that fixes it? Something we didn't get to hear onscreen because they are too busy entertaining us instead?

The gravity generators blew a fuse and fecked everything up! Sending everyone flying all over the place! They drifted from the moon to earth because of Impulse maneuvering during the battle at 0.3c or some such technobabble bollocks. (though both ships are maneuvering at the same speed and relative to each other appear stationary)

 

[Kemaiku]

You know I really was enjoying that scene so much that I didn't care for anything else, it was satisfactory all around, I don't see how that would really change anything.

 

[Flake]

I personally don't need to hear a technobabble line that explains these events beyond 'gravity systems failing' - it is those systems imho that are messing everything up whilst simultaneously being caught in Earths gravity and plummeting toward the surface.

 

[ComicGuy89]

Well therein lies the problem, I have no idea how much Star Trek you have seen but if it is just the reboot only then you are missing the point here.

I'm going to guess that I've been a fan probably for longer than you've been alive, through every incarnation of ST. I gave up on DS9, Voyager, and Enterprise through fatigue (and real life taking over). The episodes of TOS were at least written by competent sci-fi authors, and had a mild modicum of veracity.

The problem with ST09 and STiD is that they were written by hacks who had no understanding of simple science. I'm willing to forgive some of it in the interests of mindless entertainment (e.g. Lost), but I really expect a feature film to hire some science advisors.

That's a rather condescending attitude. My favorite series is TOS, yet I'll be among the first to admit that TOS is among the worst Trek series when it came to internal consistency and science. And the best part is I LOVED THAT about it. It focused more on telling interesting stories than making sense, because TOS knew it was an adventure show, not a science commentary. That's why they hired the sci-fi writers not because they were good in science, but because they could write good sci-fi, and even then, it did not make up the majority of the TOS episodes.

What's probably the most popular TOS episode? The Trouble with Tribbles. Nothing deep science-wise there. Completely ridiculous, in fact. Yet, a tremendously fun episode to watch and my personal favorite.

Or how about the numerous times when the Enterprise finds alien civilizations that look so suspiciously like Earth's cultures? Bread and Circuses? Miri? A Piece of the Action? In Miri, neither the narrative nor the characters bothered to remark on how this planet could resemble Earth down to the tiniest minutiae, and it turned out to be insignificant except to make a statement about humanity. It IS ridiculous that such a significant finding is tossed aside considering they're on a scientific exploration, but the audience doesn't care.

In fact, the average TOS monster of the week is ridiculous on so many levels, and I wouldn't have it any other way! The gigantic (and spinning!) Fesarius cube in The Corbomite Maneuver being a mere few meters away from the Enterprise yet somehow avoiding colliding with it? The amoeba monster in The Immunity Syndrome that was so ridiculous that my biology teacher used it as an example to teach about the implausibility of bacteria sizes years ago?

TOS, and Star Trek, has never been about the science (well maybe it became a bit more about the science in TNG), it was always about a group of people going on fantastic adventures together.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Well therein lies the problem, I have no idea how much Star Trek you have seen but if it is just the reboot only then you are missing the point here.

I'm going to guess that I've been a fan probably for longer than you've been alive, through every incarnation of ST. I gave up on DS9, Voyager, and Enterprise through fatigue (and real life taking over). The episodes of TOS were at least written by competent sci-fi authors, and had a mild modicum of veracity.

Or perhaps you were just younger and more impressionable when you watched it. Take a look at the TOS analog of what's being discussed now, the Enterprise's fall to Psi 2000 in "The Naked Now". How well do you think that'll hold up to this kind of scrutiny?

The problem with ST09 and STiD is that they were written by hacks who had no understanding of simple science.

Lazarus would like a word with you, concerning the universe exploding if a single particle of matter and antumatter were to collide. Also Spock on the subject of copper-based blood and alien half-breeds. Also whoever it was who thought there was a discreet edge to the galaxy (which had an unexplained magic forcefield around it which inexplicably gives people Q-powers). And the guy who thought a transporter could split a man into good and evil halves. And those Halloween aliens. Care to point out a scientifically sound TOS episode?

I'm willing to forgive some of it in the interests of mindless entertainment (e.g. Lost), but I really expect a feature film to hire some science advisors.

Then I can only assume you've been constantly disappointed by 12 Star Trek movies?

 

[WarpFactorZ]

Why the fuck does this have to become a discussion of EVERYTHING Trek has done wrong? This thread has become about that one scene in STiD. Let's focus, people.

 

[YellowSubmarine]

First: there are no shockwaves in space, in the same sense as on Earth (in the atmosphere). Shock waves in space are purely particulate, which means the tiny little pieces of Vengeance that might have hit the Enterprise would have to have been enough to push it. Translation: not likely.

Yes, there are shockwaves in space. If you have an outburst of EM radiation and particles it has to go somewhere, whether there is air between you or not. There would be a lot more than tiny pieces bombarding the Enterprise as a result of the massive explosion. Your chance of avoiding getting hit is if the outer hull of the Vengeance absorbed most of the energy and went flying away in one piece. Dialogue would suggest otherwise.

It was established in TOS: Balance of Terror that you can use proximity blasts in Star Trek, and from there on space shockwaves have been quite common. Remember The Wrath of Khan or The Undiscovered Country?

ETT: The same story would have had better science in TOS for one reason – the budget would have not allowed for such a realistic shot of the Moon sitting next to the Enterprise, and you would have had no idea where the Enterprise was. Probably every TOS episode where the Enterprise had a close encounter with a planet made as much sense as that scene, they just didn't have to money to show it to you. Or do you really think they choreographed their orbital manoeuvres with precision back then?

 

[ComicGuy89]

Why the fuck does this have to become a discussion of EVERYTHING Trek has done wrong? This thread has become about that one scene in STiD. Let's focus, people.

I think the reason it became that way is because of the following two quotes (emphasis mine):

No, if the ship was tumbling, they would feel centrifugal forces away from the center of rotation. People wouldn't be "falling" all in the same direction (i.e. toward Earth).

Don't bother defending the scene. It was completely absurd.

Has nothing to do with JJ. Don't put words in my mouth.

It has to do with the fact that people are making shit up to justify a dumb scene.

When discussion was already in progress, the fans trying to justify the supposed incongruities were accused of "making sh*t up" and that they shouldn't "bother defending the scene". How can anyone discuss the scene if they are accused of making stuff up or if they are told they shouldn't bother?

Of course, those accused would be inclined to point out that as fans have been making stuff up to defend inconsistencies in Star Trek since the beginning of TOS (especially since TOS, since it seems to be the only one you regard as scientifically competent), why should they stop now?

That is where the topic went off into everything wrong with Trek, because if any discussion is to be made, it should be acknowledged that there have always been things wrong with Trek, and fans will always find ways to justify them, regardless of whether it's TOS, TNG or the Reboots.