JJverse converts

[trevanian]

I'm a little troubled by the inclusion of real-world science trends in TOS novels ... Diane Duane kept referencing a shipboard BBS in one and I'm thinking each time that this is like calling subspace radio a telegraph system.

Back on an earlier point, with CONSCIENCE you have a show failing on its own terms, w/o the issue of science that isn't included or wasn't even conceived of. You have them saying they will KNOW when his voice is recorded ... and instead, they don't know. They make it sound like the science issue a done deal, but it is arbitrarily dispensed with.

That's called a red herring. Very common plot device in murder mysteries. I don't see how the episode fails "on its own terms"?

On its own terms, it's superficially a murder mystery plot-wise, but thematically, it's about blood being on the hands of a powerful man and even though he tried to escape judgment, that blood washed off on his own child. He couldn't escape the consequences of what he did 20 years before. He couldn't escape his fate, the direct consequences of his own evil acts--his own personal destruction and much worse yet, the consequences of what he did being visited on his own daughter who became an insane killer herself.

The 'on its own terms' reference was to view the show in the context of its time, rather than knock it because they didn't use DNA to solve it. I don't consider the voice record comparison a red herring, any more than I would expect some ordinary body shot with a phaser set on vaporize to keep walking around afterward -- as setup and defined, it should have provided the answer, and it should not have been set up as THE answer if it was not. It should have been set up as something with the potential to answer the question, which leaves its failure puzzling instead of stupid.

For me, with CONSCIENCE -- an ep that I had been hyped for by a couple of friends, and one of the later eps I caught, probably after seeing ARENA and DOOMSDAY and METAMORPHOSIS a couple dozen times each -- it didn't deliver on the premise in an engaging way. It might be due to the lack of scene time between Shatner and Moss, or maybe I have too much flinch at the 'I am TIRED!' line. (I wonder if this one was finished before Coon came on. I know it has some Spock/McCoy, but I think they've still got Spock not sounding 'right' yet. I'm one of the guys who kinda like the first dozen, but don't really dig the show till Coon leaves his mark with the characterizations.)

It would mean throwing away the whole theater angle, but I think this kind of story would have worked better if it were a Garth of Izar-type, some hero of Kirk's, who was the did-he/didn't-he figure of the story. That way it would be as much about Kirk stripping away his preconceptions of the man as it would be about the stock-mystery itself. It would also suggest a tag that could have resonated nicely, something to the effect that playing God as a starship captain has the potential to warp one's perspective, given the great stakes.

I guess just by virtue of having spent awhile thinking how the show could have been bettered means it couldn't have been that much of a turkey; I certainly wouldn't invest any time in making AND THE CHILDREN SHALL LEAD anything but shorter.

 

[Mr. Hengist]

That's because most people are of mediocre intelligence or below and they don't look at movies like Siskel & Ebert.

Always a good way to win an argument. Insult those who have a differing viewpoint.

It's not an "insult" to point out that most people are of mediocre intelligence or less [that's definitional based on a normal distribution of human intelligence in the population] and don't view movies the way Siskel & Ebert do. [That's just an obvious fact--most people aren't invested in understanding the cultural meanings of cinema. That's why the boob-ocracy doesn't care about our cultural antecedents. The don't care about "Citizen Kane" or "Casablanca" but then they also don't care about Dizzy Gillespie, Auguste Renoir, or William Shakespeare. If they don't care about those cultural antecedents, then why would anyone expect the boob-ocracy to care about TOS?] No insult was directed your way my friend, nor anyone else's; and if you think a truthful statement is an insult, then you're woefully and unnecessarily oversensitive, and that's your issue, no one else's.

Look at all the ugly tattoos young people (and even older people) get nowadays. Look at this Sydney Leathers person, her back is covered with perhaps one of the ugliest tattoos I've ever seen. You would at least think if she was going to have that done to herself she would have gotten something more artistic/classy. It looks like a chipanzee with a sharpee scrawled all over her.

I have no idea what this has to do with anything?

That doesn't surprise me but the fact that you don't have any idea doesn't mean there isn't any idea. It just means you don't comprehend the point which is fine. I won't bother trying to explain the obvious to you since you'd just consider it an insult.

You sound like a grumpy old man screaming at kids to get off his lawn.

You sound like one of the kids on the lawn.

 

[Mr. Hengist]

I'm a little troubled by the inclusion of real-world science trends in TOS novels ... Diane Duane kept referencing a shipboard BBS in one and I'm thinking each time that this is like calling subspace radio a telegraph system.

Back on an earlier point, with CONSCIENCE you have a show failing on its own terms, w/o the issue of science that isn't included or wasn't even conceived of. You have them saying they will KNOW when his voice is recorded ... and instead, they don't know. They make it sound like the science issue a done deal, but it is arbitrarily dispensed with.

That's called a red herring. Very common plot device in murder mysteries. I don't see how the episode fails "on its own terms"?

On its own terms, it's superficially a murder mystery plot-wise, but thematically, it's about blood being on the hands of a powerful man and even though he tried to escape judgment, that blood washed off on his own child. He couldn't escape the consequences of what he did 20 years before. He couldn't escape his fate, the direct consequences of his own evil acts--his own personal destruction and much worse yet, the consequences of what he did being visited on his own daughter who became an insane killer herself.

The 'on its own terms' reference was to view the show in the context of its time, rather than knock it because they didn't use DNA to solve it. I don't consider the voice record comparison a red herring, any more than I would expect some ordinary body shot with a phaser set on vaporize to keep walking around afterward -- as setup and defined, it should have provided the answer, and it should not have been set up as THE answer if it was not. It should have been set up as something with the potential to answer the question, which leaves its failure puzzling instead of stupid.

For me, with CONSCIENCE -- an ep that I had been hyped for by a couple of friends, and one of the later eps I caught, probably after seeing ARENA and DOOMSDAY and METAMORPHOSIS a couple dozen times each -- it didn't deliver on the premise in an engaging way. It might be due to the lack of scene time between Shatner and Moss, or maybe I have too much flinch at the 'I am TIRED!' line. (I wonder if this one was finished before Coon came on. I know it has some Spock/McCoy, but I think they've still got Spock not sounding 'right' yet. I'm one of the guys who kinda like the first dozen, but don't really dig the show till Coon leaves his mark with the characterizations.)

It would mean throwing away the whole theater angle, but I think this kind of story would have worked better if it were a Garth of Izar-type, some hero of Kirk's, who was the did-he/didn't-he figure of the story. That way it would be as much about Kirk stripping away his preconceptions of the man as it would be about the stock-mystery itself. It would also suggest a tag that could have resonated nicely, something to the effect that playing God as a starship captain has the potential to warp one's perspective, given the great stakes.

I guess just by virtue of having spent awhile thinking how the show could have been bettered means it couldn't have been that much of a turkey; I certainly wouldn't invest any time in making AND THE CHILDREN SHALL LEAD anything but shorter.

Name any other tv show of the period that would attempt to take a rather trite plot about a murder mystery and elevate it to a Shakesperean-level tragedy. Especially a "Sci-Fi" series. Or movie. There are none that I can think of. [Well of course there's always Forbidden Planet/"The Tempest" but...]

Maybe it didn't live up to your expectations and didn't acheive that goal but at least it tried and that's a very worthy effort.

I don't think anything is accomplished by comparing dissimilar episodes other than to muddy the waters. What in common does "And the Children Shall Lead?" have with "Conscience," thematically, plot-wise, or in any other respect, other than the rather arbitrary coincidence that you don't happen to like either of them very much? There's no reason for the two episodes to be in the same discussion other than that.

 

[BillJ]

You sound like one of the kids on the lawn.

I'm 42. I haven't been a kid in a very long time.

 

[RandyS]

The whole "all kids have ADD" thing is a bunch of bullshit anyway. That's just another version of the older generation crabbing about how "kids don't understand nothing good" that they're parents said about them. It's what every single older generation says about the younger. "They don't like it unless it's got 'splosions, quick cuts, loud rock music and shaky cam." Just because they're used to what the standard for blockbuster entertainment is doesn't make them closed to other things. What many people don't enjoy, though (and this ain't just kids), is dated TV and movies. Lots of us like what we grew up with and what we're used to. In 40 years, they'll be nostalgic for what they like today. But their kids will mock how cheesy it all seems. "They can't see past the old effects!" Well for some people, even the best effects from 50 years earlier are simply "bad" today.

So, the short version of what you're saying is, "In 40 years, they'll get theirs!".

Yeah, our parents and grandparents said THAT about us, too. I remember it well.

 

[Kinokima]

Yeah, our parents and grandparents said THAT about us, too. I remember it well.

But I enjoy the stuff my parents and grandparents liked.

 

[LOKAI of CHERON]

At 44, I enjoyed the hell out of STID - I had FUN, LOVED the spectacle and left the theatre feeling enaged and, well, on a high. An entertainment property entertained me, that's it - end of. I don't give a rats ass whether it has layers of "meaning" and "substance", I don't care whether it's "nihilistic" or whatever, blah, blah. I don't care if other posters believe me to be intellectually deficient. Again, I only care about being entertained - STID did that in spades.

 

[BillJ]

At 44, I enjoyed the hell out of STID - I had FUN, LOVED the spectacle and left the theatre feeling enaged and, well, on a high. An entertainment property entertained me, that's it - end of. I don't give a rats ass whether it has layers of "meaning" and "substance", I don't care whether it's "nihilistic" or whatever, blah, blah. I don't care if other posters believe me to be intellectually deficient. Again, I only care about being entertained - STID did that in spades.

Same here. I expect entertainment to entertain me.

 

[Jeri]

I really think we need a new series, because the world can use an updated exploration of the human future and the future of this planet, which is what makes Star Trek interesting to me.

 

[DCR]

For what it's worth, my daughter enjoys TOS and refuses to watch JJTrek.

She's 11.

Age does not determine tastes.

 

[Sector 7]

I like both JJTrek and TOSTrek. A few seem to think that is a mortal sin, but not me. I was introduced to Trek when TAS appeared on Saturday mornings in the 1970s, then fell in love with TOS in syndication.

JJTrek is just another iteration of what I love. Certainly, there are parts of which I am no fan. However, the good far outweighs the bad, IMO.

 

[LOKAI of CHERON]

I like both JJTrek and TOSTrek. A few seem to think that is a mortal sin, but not me. I was introduced to Trek when TAS appeared on Saturday mornings in the 1970s, then fell in love with TOS in syndication.

JJTrek is just another iteration of what I love. Certainly, there are parts of which I am no fan. However, the good far outweighs the bad, IMO.

Well said.

 

[GameOn]

The new movies have got people interested in watching Trek but most jump into TOS expecting it to be like the movies only to be put off by how dated it appears. Even as a kid in the 80's I though TOS was pretty dated so I can understand where they're coming from. I got into Trek with the movies and TNG and I've found that's usually a good place for people to start.

 

[trevanian]

For what it's worth, my daughter enjoys TOS and refuses to watch JJTrek.

She's 11.

Age does not determine tastes.

Hearing that is almost enough to make me wish I'd had or adopted a kid.

 

[trevanian]

Name any other tv show of the period that would attempt to take a rather trite plot about a murder mystery and elevate it to a Shakesperean-level tragedy. Especially a "Sci-Fi" series. Or movie. There are none that I can think of.

The Prisoner. Shot at about the same too, and aired several months later if I'm not mistaken.

Maybe not specifically a murder mystery, but HAMMER INTO ANVIL absolutely fits your notion of trite dramatics (baddie causes death of innocent, threatens hero, etc.), but does so with
style and resonance I'd equate with good literature.

The only reason I was bringing AND THE CHILDREN back in was because that was in context of my original post. I don't see anything unclear about that.

 

[RandyS]

Yeah, our parents and grandparents said THAT about us, too. I remember it well.

But I enjoy the stuff my parents and grandparents liked.

So do I. I don't need a TV show or movie to be less than a decade old to enjoy it. I was just pointing out the irony. Every generation goes through this.

It DOES get annoying, but it can also be funny.

 

[Melakon]

Geez, when I was around 13, I always wound up going to my room because my parents liked to watch Sing Along With Mitch and Lawrence Welk. Those are two shows I never look up on YouTube. They liked westerns too, which were okay, but I preferred sci-fi and adventure shows.

 

[Mr. Hengist]

Name any other tv show of the period that would attempt to take a rather trite plot about a murder mystery and elevate it to a Shakesperean-level tragedy. Especially a "Sci-Fi" series. Or movie. There are none that I can think of.

The Prisoner. Shot at about the same too, and aired several months later if I'm not mistaken.

Maybe not specifically a murder mystery, but HAMMER INTO ANVIL absolutely fits your notion of trite dramatics (baddie causes death of innocent, threatens hero, etc.), but does so with
style and resonance I'd equate with good literature.

The only reason I was bringing AND THE CHILDREN back in was because that was in context of my original post. I don't see anything unclear about that.

No doubt the Prisoner was classic, great, and unique. Unlike anything else, ever. It was Patrick McGoohan's pet project and deliberately intended to be "experimental."

However--the same people who have no interest in watching TOS or black and white movies like "Casablanca" would obviously have zero patience for the Prisoner, even less than they would for TOS.

 

[Mr. Hengist]

Yeah, our parents and grandparents said THAT about us, too. I remember it well.

But I enjoy the stuff my parents and grandparents liked.

So do I. I don't need a TV show or movie to be less than a decade old to enjoy it. I was just pointing out the irony. Every generation goes through this.

It DOES get annoying, but it can also be funny.

Let's all try to remember that summer "blockbuster" movies are created for a specific audience--adolescent children. Action/adventure is directed to 12 - 14 year old boys and things like Twilight towards adolescent girls.

And it's easy enough for an adult to enjoy them on that level too. Sure I love to see spaceships crash into tall buildings--why not? Spaceship go BOOM.

And the film makers may even try to sneak things into the script on a more mature or adult level, but if so, it's almost accidental and more of a strained mannerism on the part of the film maker so they don't have to acknowledge "Hey I'm making these movies for rather dull children so there has to be a lot of explosions to keep their attention."

The interesting thing about TOS is that due to the practical limitations inherent in having limited budgets, sketchy special effects abilities, and very short time frames to produce episodes for weekly broadcast, it had the effect of forcing the makers to place more of an emphasis on story, thematic ideas, and "bigger ideas" then a summer movie blockbuster with an unlimited budget ever has to worry about.

When you're constrained by budget to do a "bottle show," then you HAVE to try to come up with a good, interesting story, that is "about something," if you want to succeed. There were surely plenty of misfires along the way too.

That's not to say that the JJ movies aren't entertaining or that they're lacking in any merit, and I never said that.

They are simply completely derivative, they contribute no new ideas, and when the two hours or so of flashing images on the screen are over, there's really not much to talk about.

 

[trevanian]

Name any other tv show of the period that would attempt to take a rather trite plot about a murder mystery and elevate it to a Shakesperean-level tragedy. Especially a "Sci-Fi" series. Or movie. There are none that I can think of.

The Prisoner. Shot at about the same too, and aired several months later if I'm not mistaken.

Maybe not specifically a murder mystery, but HAMMER INTO ANVIL absolutely fits your notion of trite dramatics (baddie causes death of innocent, threatens hero, etc.), but does so with
style and resonance I'd equate with good literature.

The only reason I was bringing AND THE CHILDREN back in was because that was in context of my original post. I don't see anything unclear about that.

No doubt the Prisoner was classic, great, and unique. Unlike anything else, ever. It was Patrick McGoohan's pet project and deliberately intended to be "experimental."

However--the same people who have no interest in watching TOS or black and white movies like "Casablanca" would obviously have zero patience for the Prisoner, even less than they would for TOS.

Ain't it the sad truth?