So did Worf's Change of Heart cost him command of the Enterprise?

[Bry_Sinclair]

Worf has made a few questionable decisions in his career, such as firing on an unidentified ship as it decloaked, sacrificing a key intelligence asset for the life of his wife, giving up his post as UFP Ambassador to the Klingon Empire for some reason, all of which would go against him.

I would say that he would be well down on the list of possible officers to command an Enterprise.

 

[R. Star]

I do not understand why Worf got a mark on his record. Sisko or whoever should have known better then to pair up a husband and wife on a mission that dangerous. Who would not have made the same decision Worf made.

Seems a valid point to me, but this is the same Federation that sent ships into battle against the Borg with civilians and families on board. Even the Ferengi ridiculed this behavior in TNG's Rascals when Riker tried defending it. The mindset is there that either Starfleet officers are expected to function regardless of their family's proximity, or they're just turning a blind eye to what seems obvious to us "primitive" humans that they can be a liability in a dangerous setting.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

Worf has made a few questionable decisions in his career, such as firing on an unidentified ship as it decloaked, sacrificing a key intelligence asset for the life of his wife, giving up his post as UFP Ambassador to the Klingon Empire for some reason, all of which would go against him.

I don't think giving up his diplomatic position would have affected him in any way unless it happened due to disciplinary problems. People change careers all the time for reasons that aren't necessarily negative. Worf was more likely to face scrutiny for the other incidents you've mentioned, as well as his killing Duras against Picard's orders.

--Sran

 

[Dream]

Seems a valid point to me, but this is the same Federation that sent ships into battle against the Borg with civilians and families on board.

There probably wasn't enough time to transfer the families onto a space station or a planet. The Borg were rushing to Earth in BoBW, and the Starfleet was gathering everything they could for a final defensive at Wolf 359. I think it's understandable what happened.

I think when the Starfleet DID have time and they know they will be going into battle, they have the families transferred someplace safe like the U.S.S Odyssey moving its families onto DS9 during the the first battle with the Dominion. I imagine families were no longer on the Starfleet ships during the Dominion War.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

There probably wasn't enough time to transfer the families onto a space station or a planet. The Borg were rushing to Earth in BoBW, and the Starfleet was gathering everything they could for a final defensive at Wolf 359. I think it's understandable what happened.

And given the Borg's propensity for obliterating anything in their path, who's to say leaving civilians on a planet would have kept them safe? Starfleet probably figured the safest place to be was aboard a vessel that could outrun any pursuers.

I think when the Starfleet DID have time and they know they will be going into battle, they have the families transferred someplace safe like the U.S.S Odyssey moving its families onto DS9 during the fight with the first battle with the Dominion. I imagine families were no long on the Starfleet ships during the Dominion War.

Agreed, though the Jem'Hadar had no problem attacking non-military targets. Moving families to another location was better than having them in the middle of a war zone, but it wasn't a guarantee of safety.

--Sran

 

[T'Girl]

There probably wasn't enough time to transfer the families onto a space station or a planet.

An option prior to Wolf359 would have been to load the families and other non-combatants (like bartenders and barbers) into a number of the ship's lifeboats and launch them into interstellar space, well short of the anticipated battle zone. Contacting Starfleet concerning the lifeboats location.

Well, technically both Decker and Spock got the Enterprise as their first commands.

It's impossible to say if the Enterprise was Decker's first command. It might make more sense if he had first command a smaller vessel somewhere in his past.

It's a common supposition that Kirk commanded a destroyer type vessel before the Enterprise.

Spock's "first command" was that shuttlecraft that had nearly half is crew killed.

Dougherty's attempts to force-relocate the Ba'ku at the behest of the Son'a

Dougherty's orders came from the Federation Council, not the Sona.

 

[Jerikka Dawn]

Technically, Decker never left the gate. I don't remember if Spock ever took the cadet crew on a training cruise, but when Kirk came aboard Spock insisted on relinquishing command. "First best destiny" or something.

For clarity's sake, Spock was in command of Enterprise during the training cruise and didn't relinquish command until after Kirk brought the Regula I situation to Spock's attention.

Funnily enough, had Spock remained in command, it's conceivable the shields would have been up during the first encounter with Khan

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

Spock's "first command" was that shuttlecraft that had nearly half is crew killed.

You're doing it again. You know full well that I'm referring to command of a starship, not an assignment that requires command of a small group for a short length of time. Don't be a smart-ass.

Dougherty's orders came from the Federation Council, not the Sona.

That's not what I said, and I think you know it. I'm going to ask you again to stop being a smart-ass. It's not funny. It's not cute. If you have something worthwhile to say in response to my posts, that's fine. But if you're going to play these stupid word games for your own amusement, find someone else with whom to waste your time.

--Sran

 

[T'Girl]

Spock's "first command" was that shuttlecraft that had nearly half is crew killed.

You're doing it again.

Again?

Dougherty's attempts to force-relocate the Ba'ku at the behest of the Son'a

Dougherty's orders came from the Federation Council, not the Sona.

That's not what I said, and I think you know it.

"Behest" a command or order. So that is exactly what you said, and really Sran shouldn't you know that?

Admiral Dougherty was moving the Baku on the orders of the Federation Council, this is established in the movie's dialog. The Sona (again in dialog) thought the elaborate plan involving the duck blind study and the holoship was foolish, so neither of those actions were the Sona's idea.

I'm going to ask you again to stop being a smart-ass. It's not funny. It's not cute. If you have something worthwhile to say in response to my posts, that's fine.

Which is what I did. You were wrong concerning details of a movie, and I pointed it out.

But if you're going to play these stupid word games for your own amusement, find someone else with whom to waste your time.

No thank you.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

"Behest" a command or order. So that is exactly what you said, and really Sran shouldn't you know that?

I don't know. Should I? You apparently believe you're qualified to dictate to me what I should and should not know, so you should already have the answer to that question. Thank you for proving my point for me: you're a smart-ass and you're acting like it.

Admiral Dougherty was moving the Baku on the orders of the Federation Council, this is established in the movie's dialog.

Yes, I'm aware of that. Though I suspect you should already know this, as you've already stated that you know what I know.

The Sona (again in dialog) thought the elaborate plan involving the duck blind study and the holoship was foolish, so neither of those actions were the Sona's idea.

Once again, I'm aware of this. I never said that the Son'a were responsible for either the holo-ship or the duckblind. But congratulations on putting words in my mouth again.

Which is what I did. You were wrong concerning details of a movie, and I pointed it out.

No. I was wrong in how I worded a previous post. I know that Admiral Dougherty was acting on orders from the Federation Council because Riker and LaForge had to discuss the situation with them to get them to change their mind about the Ba'ku. And I'm pointing this out to you, as I doubt you're capable of reading between the lines.

Now, are you ready to join the rest of society, or do you need more time to masturbate in public?

--Sran

 

[MacLeod]

If the Son'a petioned the Federation council to help them remove the Ba'ku. Then the order could maybe be classed at being at the behest of the Son'a.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

If the Son'a petioned the Federation council to help them remove the Ba'ku. Then the order could maybe be classed at being at the behest of the Son'a.

Thank you. This is stated much more eloquently than what I'd said previously. In any case, it's clear from the film's events that the Son'a were the driving force behind what was happening. As soon as Picard blew the lid off their common ancestry with the Ba'ku, the gig was off.

--Sran

 

[T'Girl]

If the Son'a petioned the Federation council to help them remove the Ba'ku. Then the order could maybe be classed at being at the behest of the Son'a.

Hmm, don't think so. As I see it, the Sona approached the Federation Council informing them that the Federation possessed a natural resource that they weren't aware of. The Sona had the equipment to harvest it. After Starfleet checked out the planet and verified the properties of the rings the Federation and the Sona formed a partnership.

The Sona weren't working for the Federation.
The Federation weren't working for the Sona.

At some point a Starfleet Admiral was assigned to over see the Federation's interests in the operation. At no point was he under the control of the Sona, or taking their orders.

Dougherty's attempted relocation of the Baku was by the orders of the Council, and not at the behest of the Sona. The Sona were powerless to give him such orders.

And I doubt the Sona "petioned the Federation Council to help them remove the Baku," to the Federation moving the Baku was incidental. As far as the Federation was concerned the Baku were being relocated solely to protect them from the harvesting process.

In the Federation's eyes, the primary concern was the harvesting of the particles in the ring, the particles that would help so many billions of their own people.

 

[MacLeod]

The point is that the Son'a approached the UFP about the planet. Otherwise it would likely have gone unnoticed for who knows how long. At some point the Son'a went to the council and petitioned the Federation about the planet. As the Federation sent a ship for the sole purpose of forcibly relocating the population they Son'a must have said something about the planet being inhabitated. They however negleted to inform them the inhabitants of the planet and the Son'a where related.

Starfleet was operating under the orders of the Federation council no one is denying that, but the Federation council was given misleading information by the Son'a who were trying to get revenge for being exiled. Would the Federation Council have given starfleet a different set of orders if they new the truth?

 

[Tomalak]

None of this changes that Picard was right in what he did, as Starfleet was clearly up to no good, and knew it. They were violating the Prime Directive by interfering with the Baku. If it was all above board, Dougherty would just have been straight with Picard. Instead he did everything he could, including threatening to kill Data, to keep it from the Enterprise crew. Just because the Admiral was acting on orders from the Federation Council doesn't mean he was blameless. "I was following orders" is no defence.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

None of this changes that Picard was right in what he did, as Starfleet was clearly up to no good, and knew it. They were violating the Prime Directive by interfering with the Baku. If it was all above board, Dougherty would just have been straight with Picard. Instead he did everything he could, including threatening to kill Data, to keep it from the Enterprise crew. Just because the Admiral was acting on orders from the Federation Council doesn't mean he was blameless. "I was following orders" is no defence.

Whether Picard was right or wrong is highly debatable - and debated on this forum. It's about the billions that suffered due to Picard's refusal to institute eminent domain.

The movie made clear that, in that specific case, the Prime Directive was not broken by interfering with the baku.
Also, 24th century Prime Directive is garbage.

PS - "I was following orders" - regardless of the orders - is a rock solid defence, provided the winning side gave you the orders.

PS2:

Dougherty's orders came from the Federation Council, not the Sona.

That's not what I said, and I think you know it. I'm going to ask you again to stop being a smart-ass. It's not funny. It's not cute. If you have something worthwhile to say in response to my posts, that's fine. But if you're going to play these stupid word games for your own amusement, find someone else with whom to waste your time.

Actually, Dougherty acting at the behest of the sona is exactly what you said, Sran. No superiority complex can change this fact.

 

[marksound]

Picard's refusal to institute eminent domain.

It seems more to me like "manifest destiny" than "eminent domain."

 

[Tomalak]

The movie made clear that, in that specific case, the Prime Directive was not broken by interfering with the baku.

But that's only after Data blows the gig, and Picard finds out the Baku are warp capable. Before that, as far as Dougherty and the Federation Council knew, they were just 600 primitive natives, and proceeded to try to move them to a different planet.

But having established that fact, Dougherty still wasn't clear with Picard, or the Baku. Instead of sitting around a table and reasoning with the Baku, which was eminently possible, they continued with their clandestine plot to forcibly remove the planet's population.

You can talk about utilitarian need, but that's not the only consideration in this instance.

PS - "I was following orders" - regardless of the orders - is a rock solid defence, provided the winning side gave you the orders.

The winning side is rather unlikely to bring it to court. That doesn't change the moral issue with which Picard was grappling.

Let's not forget that eventually even Dougherty realised that he'd failed, was in the wrong, and that the mission was over. That's when the crazy bad guy ripped his face apart and tried to obliterate the planet's population. If it weren't for Ruafo, motivated primarily by bitterness and misplaced hatred, everyone would have gone home happily.

 

[MacLeod]

The Federation had no claim for eminant to a planet that was already inhabiated, calimed by another race before the Federation was estalished. The Ba'ku had no representation in the Federation to fight the sizeure of their land.

If the Ba'ku had settled the planet after the Federation was formed and it was within Federation sapce then the Federation could lay claim to eminant domain.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

The movie made clear that, in that specific case, the Prime Directive was not broken by interfering with the baku.

But that's only after Data blows the gig, and Picard finds out the Baku are warp capable. Before that, as far as Dougherty and the Federation Council knew, they were just 600 primitive natives, and proceeded to try to move them to a different planet.

Actually, Dougherty told Picard the prime directive doesn't apply because the baku are not natives and their natural evolution will not be disturbed.
No Data or 'warp capable' needed.

But having established that fact, Dougherty still wasn't clear with Picard, or the Baku. Instead of sitting around a table and reasoning with the Baku, which was eminently possible, they continued with their clandestine plot to forcibly remove the planet's population.

Indeed, the clandestine plot was idiotic.
The federation council should have invoked eminent domain through the legal channels. Assuming the baku had any legal right to the planet under federation law, that is (it doesn't look like it).

You can talk about utilitarian need, but that's not the only consideration in this instance.

And what are these poorly defined considerations?

PS - "I was following orders" - regardless of the orders - is a rock solid defence, provided the winning side gave you the orders.

The winning side is rather unlikely to bring it to court. That doesn't change the moral issue with which Picard was grappling.

Not moral (which, as said, is highly debatable here) doesn't get one in prison if he was the winning side's peon.
As said, rock solid defence.