Genesis Question

[balls]

What would have happened if the Enterprise didn't achieve warp when the genesis device exploded? The shields weren't working due to the nebula. Woud the Enterprise have been destroyed? Or, would the genesis wave just destroy the existing life aboard the ship? Also, would Peter Preston be rejuvinated like Spock eventually was? Just some odd questions as I'm sitting in a boring meeting at work. Thanks

 

[MacLeod]

I suspect they would all be dead, and their atoms used to ho help create the Genesis Planet.

 

[Timo]

Or then the device had no planet-creating ability (it never was credited with it, after all), and merely put life on a lifeless heavenly body just as the sales pitch said. Thus, it would have turned the surface of Regula to the lush and fertile Genesis Planet, but when hitting the Enterprise it would just have turned the ship and its crew to a sperm whale and some petunias, all of which would have quickly died as they didn't have a planet to stand on.

There might also be some focusing issues, so that the Genesis effect would only create viable life at the point it was targeted on, but mere vaguely lifelike not-quite-shapes in those areas of space it passed through on its way to the focal point.

It should be noted that Spock was not rejuvenated by the wavefront of the Genesis effect itself, but by the aftereffects several hours or days after the Genesis Planet had been established. Presumably, then, the wavefront would not have rejuvenated people aboard the Enterprise... Unless "aftereffects" and "off-focus effects" are more or less the same thing.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[SchwEnt]

Aw, Genesis as detonated in the movie shouldn't have worked at all.

What was it Carol Marcus said... "There can't be so much as a microbe or the show's off."

Well it's pretty certain that aboard the Reliant, there were microbes. Even if Khan and every person aboard was dead at the time of detonation, it'd only been minutes since their deaths. Lots of bacteria and microbes and undead cells and whatnot still in their guts and stuff.

That alone could have explained the later problems with Genesis, without the need for inventing protomatter.

 

[mos6507]

Remember that Khan wanted to use Genesis as a weapon. The destructive potential of Genesis is that it must first destroy everything within a given radius before the terraforming process begins. That flame effect in the early CGI is the destruction process. It's just that the simulation was on a rocky planet, not an inhabited one. Other than the proto-matter flaw which was introduced in III, it's basically a nuclear weapon with positive after-effects, thus negating the MAD principle.

 

[Timo]

What was it Carol Marcus said... "There can't be so much as a microbe or the show's off."

Only in the sense of ruining the scientific validity of the experiment, though. Genesis would work just fine, but would not prove its ability to create life from absolutely no life.

After studying the Genesis material, Spock was confident that Genesis would "destroy [preexisting] life in favor of its new matrix". This would probably have been the fate of the Enterprise crew as well.

it's basically a nuclear weapon with positive after-effects, thus negating the MAD principle

The positive effects would be to the attacker, though, not the victim - and MAD would still hold, as both of the attacking sides in an exchange of Genesis torpedoes would also be at the receiving ends, and would be destroyed in favor of the new matrix.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[SchwEnt]

^^^ So if there's even a microbe, the show's *not* off?

I took Carol's statement to mean that the life-generating effect wouldn't work if there was even microbial life present.

I took it as an either/or extreme.

If there's no life, then the Genesis effect would result in life where none existed before.
If there were even microbes, then it would destroy such life, in favor of it's new matrix.

Genesis either creates life or destroys life, based on the conditions present at detonation. This was my understanding of its function. Or was the lifeless requirement a condition to test the Genesis experiment in a sterile uncontaminated controlled environment?

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

It should be noted that Spock was not rejuvenated by the wavefront of the Genesis effect itself, but by the aftereffects several hours or days after the Genesis Planet had been established. Presumably, then, the wavefront would not have rejuvenated people aboard the Enterprise... Unless "aftereffects" and "off-focus effects" are more or less the same thing.

Not cannon, but there's a great Myriad Universe story called The Chimes at Midnight set in a reality where Spock died at the age of seven, and Kirk's first-officer is an Andorian named Thelin, who appears in TAS. Thelin manages to deflect the Genesis wave away from the Enterprise to save the ship at the end of TWOK.

Later, several crew members are found to have been affected by the wave and develop altered appendages in place of arms and legs. I don't remember the exact theory as to why this happened but remember being creeped out by it.

--Sran

 

[SpHeRe31459]

Or was the lifeless requirement a condition to test the Genesis experiment in a sterile uncontaminated controlled environment?

^^this

Because notice Genesis did work and used the Reliant, Khan and his crew, and the nebula as raw matter. So it would be a horrible thing to do with anything living around it.
It would be unethical, since it harms life, no matter how small and it would taint the results.

 

[marksound]

I took Carol Marcus' comment to mean that they could not take a chance on destroying any existing life "in favor of its new matrix."

The Genesis device, when detonated aboard Reliant, used the matter around it (as well as the nebula?) to create the Genesis planet. If Enterprise were caught in the wave, it probably would have been incorporated into the new matrix.

ETA: Looks like a couple of people beat me to it.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

^That's my understanding. The Enterprise would have been made part of the planet's matrix due to the effects of the wave after the detonation.

--Sran

 

[Tulin]

What would have happened if the Enterprise didn't achieve warp when the genesis device exploded? The shields weren't working due to the nebula. Woud the Enterprise have been destroyed? Or, would the genesis wave just destroy the existing life aboard the ship? Also, would Peter Preston be rejuvinated like Spock eventually was? Just some odd questions as I'm sitting in a boring meeting at work. Thanks

The Enterprise and everything inside it would have been re-organized at the molecular level, adding to the available matter used to create the structure of and lifeforms on the Genesis system. A lot of people forget that not only was a planet created but also a star.

 

[Tulin]

^^^ So if there's even a microbe, the show's *not* off?

I took Carol's statement to mean that the life-generating effect wouldn't work if there was even microbial life present.

I took it as an either/or extreme.

If there's no life, then the Genesis effect would result in life where none existed before.
If there were even microbes, then it would destroy such life, in favor of it's new matrix.

Genesis either creates life or destroys life, based on the conditions present at detonation. This was my understanding of its function. Or was the lifeless requirement a condition to test the Genesis experiment in a sterile uncontaminated controlled environment?

Carol was referring to the Prime Directive's raison d'etre, in its most extreme form.

Talk about NOT interfering with a society's evolution!

I actually NEVER got the POV that if microbes existed either G. wouldn't work or that it might bias the results, allowing naysayers to say they were already there.

Interesting.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

The Enterprise and everything inside it would have been re-organized at the molecular level, adding to the available matter used to create the structure of and lifeforms on the Genesis system. A lot of people forget that not only was a planet created but also a star.

Do we know that the star was created by the Genesis torpedo detonation? There was a visible pulsar inside the Mutara Nebula during the Enterprise-Reliant confrontation. Moreover, there's no sign of the class-D planetoid that was previously adjacent to the nebula.

--Sran

 

[Maurice]

The Enterprise and everything inside it would have been re-organized at the molecular level, adding to the available matter used to create the structure of and lifeforms on the Genesis system. A lot of people forget that not only was a planet created but also a star.

Do we know that the star was created by the Genesis torpedo detonation? There was a visible pulsar inside the Mutara Nebula during the Enterprise-Reliant confrontation. Moreover, there's no sign of the class-D planetoid that was previously adjacent to the nebula.

--Sran

No. There was a flashing light behind the Reliant that conveniently faded away as they ships started gunning at each other.

 

[Timo]

...And we previously saw that the nebula was subject to "lightning storms", so this source of light was probably one of those.

But several facts remain:

a) Genesis was designed to convert a dead planet into a live one, not to build planets
b) Genesis was not flexible, according to its makers
c) Khan showed no skill or interest in reprogramming Genesis anyway
d) The Mutara nebula was right next to the star system where Regula orbited an unknown star (possibly named Regula, too) - that is, within a few impulse-minutes of it

So, when after the detonation we see a living planet next to a star, the obvious assumption is that it's the same old star we are already familiar with - and even the same old planet. If a new star were created, we'd have to explain what happened to the old one!

There are some interesting traits to the eventual Genesis planet that would (quite unintentionally, of course) be consistent with it being the tiny Regula. Sunrises and sunsets are very fast, and the day cycle is short; also, the horizon seems awfully close in the "icy wastes" and "lava hellhole" matte vistas.

Interestingly, the final sunset before the showdown between Kirk and the Klingons falls within the exact same stretch of the horizon where the final sunrise also takes place during Kirk's foot-in-the-mouth(-of-Kruge) moment! The planet seems to wobble an awful lot...

It would be unethical, since it harms life, no matter how small and it would taint the results.

I didn't notice traits in the Marcuses that would suggest they'd find it unethical to kill microbes. David seemed eager to kill higher lifeforms with his (almost) bare hands, and Carol was okay with dating a professional murderer and having his child.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[marksound]

Carol was okay with dating a professional murderer and having his child.

Please explain "professional murderer."

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

Please explain "professional murderer."

You may find your answers in the "Why Let Khan Live?" thread. He makes a similar argument there.

--Sran

 

[Timo]

It's obvious enough: an extreme pro-life attitude of "killing microbes is a sin!" would involve considering Kirk's profession one of murdering.

(Which it is in objective fact anyway: no law allows for the killing of an enemy soldier on both sides of the exchange - it's always murder from the POV of the victim. There's no law that says "Foreign citizens wearing uniform can freely kill our soldiers"; there's just the custom of neither side prosecuting the other's murderers after the war is concluded, because that wouldn't be practical. At most, key figures such as high-ranking officers may get prosecuted for conducting the murder campaign.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[marksound]

Please explain "professional murderer."

You may find your answers in the "Why Let Khan Live?" thread. He makes a similar argument there.

--Sran

If I wanted to look up an answer in another thread I wouldn't have asked for clarification in this one.

But hey, nice talking to ya. :P