A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

[Venardhi]

Not to mention that Shae herself is unrecognizable. All she has done all season is frown and grumble. Her betrayal doesn't seem at all surprising considering how little we've actually seen them together of late(and how little of that has been a positive interaction), and makes her turning down Varys free bag of diamonds look positively schizoid.

 

[Brendan Moody]

As I look back at this season, it really sticks out how poorly the show has handled the overall scope of the story. Each plotline seemed to be occurring in isolation, with virtually no reaction to happenings in the others. Until this week, no one in King's Landing ever mentioned Robb's marriage, an event of enormous strategic significance; it was darn near impossible to tell the Lannisters were fighting a war at all, since all the writers could think to do with all the added screen time for those characters was drag out Tyrell/Lannister wrangling that has at least two more seasons to go. Meanwhile, the ironborn apparently sat on their hands all season, until it was time to remind the audience that they hold the North. Robb appears to have forgotten that too, since he made no mention of it, and instead of reclaiming his homeland planned for an attack on Casterly Rock(!). And, of course, Theon had to be isolated from everything else, so they could hold for the finale the underwhelming reveal that his captor is a character who means nothing much to the TV audience anyway. The show is often praised for managing such a large cast and story, but that's easy if all you have to do is divide it into several barely-connected chunks.

 

[Ayelbourne]

- Jaime and Brienne arrive in King's Landing before the Purple Wedding, wonder how they're going to work around that? Just have Loras throw Brienne in the dungeons until after?

On the show, Loras never suspected Brienne in the first place.
So that little sideplot has already been dealt with.

 

[DalekJim]

I can't believe how much filler we've had this season at the expense of crucial character beats like Jaime's dream. So many pointless scenes going over the same stuff. Joffrey is getting married? Yeah, I fucking get it. Now can the plot move forward? Where the fuck even is Mace Tyrell? Well why introduce him when we can have pointless Theon torture sequences. Every week! Ones that aren't even half as interesting as the actual Reek plot in A Clash of Kings we should have had last season.

The characters themselves are bafflingly adapted. Arya kills her first man a year too late, Stannis is COMPLETELY out of character to the point that I have no idea why Davos likes him, Mance Rayder is some bland growly cunt with none of the eccentricities of his book counterpart, and don't even get me fucking STARTED on the Tyrion and Sansa marriage.

But the dumbass casual audience will still whoop and declare every episode as "Epic win!" if tits are shown.

Season 1 was such an excellent adaptation. What happened? Still, I hope they at least get the Fake Arya/Jeyne Poole plot right as it's one of my favourite things in the series. Wait, they didn't include Jeyne in Season 1!? Fuuuuuuuck.

I both love and hate this show. A damn shame it's now part of macho alpha-male culture.

 

[Lonemagpie]

Stannis has been dumbed down for the TV viewers to the point where he's unrecognisable. A similar thing has happened to Tyrion in that he's way too nice in the show. I can't actually imagine him killing Shae in cold blood.

TBH I can't see how they can go with that arc- I can't see the TV Shae banging Tywin, or Tyrion killing her for it.

On the upside, maybe we'll get lucky and they decide to keep Tywin in the show for longer, cos Charles Fucking Dance (yeah, that's his full name) is a god among men

 

[Lonemagpie]

The characters themselves are bafflingly adapted.

I don't mind most of the changes, because they're going to have to tell the story more chronologically than in the books - but their version of Daario Naharis is definitely one that bugs the shit out of me - where's our blue-haired pirate?

 

[DalekJim]

I'm a Tolkien fanatic yet can still enjoy Jackson's movies so I'm not averse to changes in adaptatons. I love Return of the King and it completely skipped the houses of healing and the Scourine of the Shire, two of my favourite elements from Lord of the Rings.

...but not having Tyrion kill Shae and Tywin would be real cowardice from the showrunners. Charles Dance as Tywin is the biggest badass on television to be sure, but some things have to be kept sacred.

At least they killed Ros this year.

 

[JarodRussell]

...but not having Tyrion kill Shae and Tywin would be real cowardice from the showrunners.

I love the use of the word cowardice when they just stabbed a pregnant woman in the belly. I know what you mean, but it's still funny.

 

[Nagisa Furukawa]

I don't mind most of the changes, because they're going to have to tell the story more chronologically than in the books - but their version of Daario Naharis is definitely one that bugs the shit out of me - where's our blue-haired pirate?

Pretty much all eccentricities and idiosyncrasies have been removed from the supporting characters and made into more generic archetypes who could be interchanged with one another. Sometimes, it doesn't really affect it that much, IE despite losing his leech fetish and creepy way of whispering, Roose Bolton has still been made into a merciless and cruel villain, while other times, it's a big fucking deal, IE fuckin' Mance and Tormund being interchangable as generic tough guys.

I love the use of the word cowardice when they just stabbed a pregnant woman in the belly. I know what you mean, but it's still funny.

Well, indeed, it does sound a little funny, but the cowardice is not in willingness to depict terrible actions; it's the willingness to depict characters they want the audience to like committing terrible actions. Black Walder stabbing a pregnant woman?? No problem, just adds to the audience's hatred and anger at the Freys.

But since the beginning, Tyrion has consistently and constantly been whitewashed. When it started in S1 (removing him breaking Marillion's fingers, leaving out that he finished off with Tysha after Tywin's men did), they were minor details in a point in the narrative in which Tyrion IS pretty much "a good guy." But after the acclaim of Tyrion in S1, the character has had all negative qualities and actions (beyond very general, very lite "he drinks a bit too much and likes prostitutes, except he doesn't cause he has his hooker with a heart of gold") removed bit by bit to the extent that when it does come down to what happens at the end of ASoS, they're either going to have to change it or it will seem incredibly out-of-character for the Shining Knight they've made him in S2/3.

 

[Ayelbourne]

Where the fuck even is Mace Tyrell?

You'll get him next season, don't worry. The casting call is already out.
The showrunners have to juggle a budget so they cast characters when they actually need them. No one needed Mace this season.

The characters themselves are bafflingly adapted. Arya kills her first man a year too late,

Which is fine by me. If given the choice between her killing a random ass guard in Harrenhall or one of the Frey soldiers bragging about creating Robbwind, I'd always choose the latter.
It's just more poignant and satisfying while still being as horrifying as the Harrenhall kill.

But the dumbass casual audience will still whoop and declare every episode as "Epic win!" if tits are shown.

I get that you're really passionate about the books but that's no reason to degrade Unsullied viewers like that. Come on, man.

Wait, they didn't include Jeyne in Season 1!? Fuuuuuuuck.

Right, because they didn't need her.

 

[Anwar]

And let's be honest, there's no way the audience would ever be able to take Daario's book description seriously and it would Dany look like an even bigger dummy for being attracted to him than in the books.

Heck, the fact that they made TV Jorah Mormont way more handsome and charismatic is having folks wonder why Dany isn't remotely attracted to him.

As for the dreams and flashbacks, some of them had to be cut out because the televised versions would've revealed too much compared to the books. Making a visual version of Ned's final moments with Lyanna would've made it too clear what happened to her, and Dany's visions in the House of the Undying would've been too obvious in the visual mediums to the audience.

 

[Shurik]

I can't believe how much filler we've had this season at the expense of crucial character beats like Jaime's dream. So many pointless scenes going over the same stuff. Joffrey is getting married? Yeah, I fucking get it. Now can the plot move forward? Where the fuck even is Mace Tyrell? Well why introduce him when we can have pointless Theon torture sequences. Every week! Ones that aren't even half as interesting as the actual Reek plot in A Clash of Kings we should have had last season.

All of this is because the showrunners should've condensed the material more, ending the season on Joffrey's death or even further. ASOS is the best book in the series, but the best and the most eventful part of it starts with the Red Wedding. Which means S4 will be beyond epic.
It's been about 2.5 years since I last read ASOS, but what does Mace Tyrell actually do in the story, besides just being there and trying to look important? He's not smart like Grandma Tyrell, not colourful like Oberyn Martell and generally not that important in the grand scheme of things. I can't see him being more than guest role, mostly just sitting on the background.

Arya kills her first man a year too late

As Ayelborne pointed out, her killing someone who was responsible for the single most horrific thing she had ever seen in her life made much more sense than killing some random guy in Harrenhall.

To be honest, I never was a fan of Arya in the books (or Starks in general, for that matter), but Maisie Williams being so great in her role and working so well with everyone she gets paired with made me like her TV version. Her being older than in the book also works better.

But the dumbass casual audience will still whoop and declare every episode as "Epic win!" if tits are shown.

The critical and ratings success of this show has nothing to do with tits. It is a well written and well done show based on good source material. It is more faithful to the source material than 99% of adaptations I've seen.

For the more recent example - have you seen the World Without End mini-series, an adaptation of Ken Follet's novel about 14th century English town? Those who did the adaptation didn't even get the date of the Black Death plague right, that's how much they didn't care. None of characters even remotely resembled their book counterparts. The acting ranged from bland to extremely bad. It looked very cheap. But maybe I'm just spoiled by GoT and expect the same production values from every period show.

Wait, they didn't include Jeyne in Season 1!? Fuuuuuuuck.

What for? Why include a very minor character who will be needed in the late S4 at the earliest, when no one will remember who the hell she was? Or would you prefer her having invented scenes of brothel training and such for three whole seasons, just like Theon had in this one?

 

[Nagisa Furukawa]

Dany's visions in the House of the Undying would've been too obvious in the visual mediums to the audience.

Some of them, yes. Not using A SINGLE, NOT A SINGLE, NOT ONE vision from HotU was just insane. If you'd have told me before S2 aired, that *nothing* from the book's visions and images would be used in the show's version, I'd have said you don't give the showrunners near enough credit as adapters. As it, uh, was just like that, they should've just gotten rid of the whole damn scene if they weren't gonna use anything of use actually from it.

 

[superdeluxe]

Game of Thrones Best Drama at Critic's Choice Awards:



http://blog.seattlepi.com/thepudger...itics-choice-television-award-for-best-drama/

 

[Anwar]

As it, uh, was just like that, they should've just gotten rid of the whole damn scene if they weren't gonna use anything of use actually from it.

They did show us important things in the visions she saw this time around though:

1) (Possibly) Snow on the Iron Throne which might spoil the entire series.

2) Throne Room destroyed either by cold weather (White Walker invasion) or ash (from Dragon fire, her dragons attacking).

3) Right after we see the ruined Throne, we see her at the Wall. Kind of making it clear there's some connection.

4) We see a Targaryen child when one parent is not a Targaryen, and it doesn't have white hair. Another implication.

 

[Brendan Moody]

People can strain to come up with interesting interpretations if they want, but it's pretty plain that the only thing in the producers' minds with the House of the Undying was achieving a vague eerie effect while using sets they already had and providing a fanservice cameo.

 

[DalekJim]

This thread is so damn refreshing . Love the show but sometimes I'm screaming at the TV. House of the Undying is one of the most crucial moments of the entire book series.

Utterly pointless filler in the show.

Without GRRM's atmospheric writing style, I find Dany's plot pretty dull.

 

[sidious618]

People can strain to come up with interesting interpretations if they want, but it's pretty plain that the only thing in the producers' minds with the House of the Undying was achieving a vague eerie effect while using sets they already had and providing a fanservice cameo.

I disagree; I thought it had some fantastic imagery and I want to hold out until we see where things go before making a call on how much foreshadowing is in that scene (I'm guessing a lot).

 

[Kegg]

People can strain to come up with interesting interpretations if they want, but it's pretty plain that the only thing in the producers' minds with the House of the Undying was achieving a vague eerie effect while using sets they already had and providing a fanservice cameo.

It's obviously not. It's firstly a rather blunt hint at the series' endgame - winter coats the country and the walkers come down (in itself, the same beat the show's hit since literally the pilot)... but more importantly, being able to leave the image of Drogo and being able to say goodbye to him has a certain amount of strength to it as a dramatic beat. The House of the Undying in the books isn't just a bunch of clues for people to obsess over, it's a surreal headscape where Dany has to keep her wits about her, and being able to move on from Drogo was part of that.

Utterly pointless filler in the show.

Without GRRM's atmospheric writing style, I find Dany's plot pretty dull.

Dany's plot was pretty weak in book two (frigging ages just screwing around in the desert) so it wasn't a lot for them to work with. It picks up again in book three, which is the best part of her arc, and the TV show has noticeably improved with it.

 

[Brendan Moody]

Keep straining, guys. If you liked the scene, that's great (seriously), and of course what the writers did reflects the obvious narrative endgame of the series on a basic level. I didn't mean to suggest they had literally no intention to point toward the future. But there's nothing new there, in contrast to the sustained, meaningful headtrip from the books, and suggestions like "they're setting up Jon's parentage... in which the show has shown no interest" and "she has to move on from Drogo... which hasn't been a factor all season" don't pass the sniff test as serious dramatic structure. They took the general shape of the scene, and did something cheap, fan-pleasing, and abbreviated with it. Probably they told themselves bringing back Jason Momoa was about Daenerys' choice between past and future, but they didn't care enough about that to make it meaningful within the context of the season.

Dany's arc in book two offers plenty to work with... if you're interested in making a fantasy series. Which, apart from sexy witches, magic zombies, and kewl dragons, Benioff and Weiss aren't. So they threw together something based on their own notions of fantasy storytelling, and it was weak. Even granting that the Qarth of the books would have been difficult to execute on screen (which I don't, though they might have had to divert some of that money they blew on making the Blackwater OMG MOVIE-STYLE EPIC), that's not the source material's fault.