Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix
- Thread starter Godless Raven
- Start date
I killed him. 
I killed him.
Tuvix became immortal the moment he was executed!
The thing of it is... Tuvok and Neelix died as it were in an accident. That's a tragedy but it's no one's fault. The unethical thing that gets to me is the notion that a military commander can just outright execute her subordinates if she perceives it as serving a greater good. Killing an innocent man, no matter the circumstances, cannot be described as ethical on any level. Janeway deciding to play god with another person's life is pretty much a supreme form of arrogance? Was it well intentioned? Probably, but that doesn't make it right. Is Tuvix a coward for not volunteering? Quite possibly so, he even said he was. But last I checked cowardice is not a capital crime. But yeah... the reset button had to be pushed. The moral dilemma of the episode was a great one, but it was also just brutal in how casually Tuvix was just tossed aside.
NO? The episode Tuvix's complicated morality did pop up now and then, but not often and definitely not in the last episode, the The last episode was...
"I'm fucking fucking RIGHT!"
"NO, FUCK YOU! I'm RIGHT!"
"OH... Sorry, I forgot, Kathryn Janeway is always right, sorry."
Deuling Janeways.
"I'm fucking fucking RIGHT!"
"NO, FUCK YOU! I'm RIGHT!"
"OH... Sorry, I forgot, Kathryn Janeway is always right, sorry."
Deuling Janeways.
Yeah, I'm sure that played into it some. There was definitely something... off... about Tuvix.
I don't want to belabor this, but if Tuvok and Neelix were retrievable then they hadn't really died. I feel that Janeway (while not playing God by any measure) was perhaps influenced by her long affinity with Tuvok, as well as her friendship with Neelix. Nobody's perfect. While the ending was indeed a bit "brutal", it was also a breath of fresh air. Not every Trek episode needs to end with "the greater good has once again prevailed" or the standard deus ex machina. It caught me a little off guard and was entertaining as a result.
By page 59, everyone is belabouring everything.
Page 60!
I practically shuddered the first time I saw a (fictional account by a fictional character) busy/professional type A personality woman schedule her c-section months in advance so that it would not interfere with her business affairs.
But yes decent human beings can always find someone from the third world to carry and bring their children to labour.
I practically shuddered the first time I saw a (fictional account by a fictional character) busy/professional type A personality woman schedule her c-section months in advance so that it would not interfere with her business affairs.
But yes decent human beings can always find someone from the third world to carry and bring their children to labour.
In the future you will be able to watch them growing from a few weeks in huge tubes in your own home. Martha Stewart types will even decorate the tubes for the Christmas etc..
The ridiculously hot for a 40 year old, Martha Stewart, is 71!
Never really did the math when I oogled the woman on her Apprentice spinoff, but seriously does she sleep in carbonite?
Never really did the math when I oogled the woman on her Apprentice spinoff, but seriously does she sleep in carbonite?
Does carbonite come in pearl?
If the Hutt don't seem like capitalists, then the Bounty Hunters most certainly do.
You exploitation is moments away.
You exploitation is moments away.
Guy, I feel like I came to the end almost entirely to respond to your original post which was actually uncharacteristically REALLY REALLY LONG for you >.< Hell, it looks like some of my G+ posts >.<
Since the main topic is really drowned out here by page 59, as you pointed out, I wanted to touch on the first part you said, which actually, surprisingly, no one really commented on in the first few pages.
I'm something of a firm believer that if we ever REALLY get back into a Star Trek series we need some kind of mega technology update. The Doctor (and to a lesser extent Data) were both based on our comparatively limited understanding of AI development back during the 80s and 90s. Back then, we envisioned AIs to essentially be a cluster of nested IF and OR statements while today, if we were going to truly tackle a character like The Doctor, we by all rights should be basing it's AI on theorteical concepts of quatum computing as we understand it today.
Putting that a little more into perspective; the big difference between us and computers is if you give computers a problem they work out the solutions based on all its programmed variables each time it completes the operation. The human brain on the other hand recreates the process each and every time it does an operation known or unknown and each time it does that the human brain allows for recently assimilated knowledge to become factored in to the process allowing you to either perceive shortcuts, easier ways of doing things, more efficient ways of doing things or that ilk.
As we understand computers today, an artificial life form would almost certainly use quantum processing that mimics biological brains versus binary processes which are rigid and systematic.
That being said, I will point out that you're absolutely right, as we understand computer science today compared to when the series was made, we have no right calling The Doctor anything more then a toaster based on what we know about it's design. >.<
Oddly enough, we can tug on far too many other areas of Star Trek >.< Its a little scary when you stop to think for a second how dated Star Trek is because of some of our advancements yet our advancements have been at a proverbial crawl the last decade or so >.<
Since the main topic is really drowned out here by page 59, as you pointed out, I wanted to touch on the first part you said, which actually, surprisingly, no one really commented on in the first few pages.
I'm something of a firm believer that if we ever REALLY get back into a Star Trek series we need some kind of mega technology update. The Doctor (and to a lesser extent Data) were both based on our comparatively limited understanding of AI development back during the 80s and 90s. Back then, we envisioned AIs to essentially be a cluster of nested IF and OR statements while today, if we were going to truly tackle a character like The Doctor, we by all rights should be basing it's AI on theorteical concepts of quatum computing as we understand it today.
Putting that a little more into perspective; the big difference between us and computers is if you give computers a problem they work out the solutions based on all its programmed variables each time it completes the operation. The human brain on the other hand recreates the process each and every time it does an operation known or unknown and each time it does that the human brain allows for recently assimilated knowledge to become factored in to the process allowing you to either perceive shortcuts, easier ways of doing things, more efficient ways of doing things or that ilk.
As we understand computers today, an artificial life form would almost certainly use quantum processing that mimics biological brains versus binary processes which are rigid and systematic.
That being said, I will point out that you're absolutely right, as we understand computer science today compared to when the series was made, we have no right calling The Doctor anything more then a toaster based on what we know about it's design. >.<
Oddly enough, we can tug on far too many other areas of Star Trek >.< Its a little scary when you stop to think for a second how dated Star Trek is because of some of our advancements yet our advancements have been at a proverbial crawl the last decade or so >.<
Thank you for you insight.
The reason I can make such long posts in this thread and threads exactly like it, is Bill Murray in Ground Hog Day.
The reason I can make such long posts in this thread and threads exactly like it, is Bill Murray in Ground Hog Day.
Tuvix was an entire species, the only member of his race. A complete civilization.
To balance the scales against all the Talaxian/Vulcans hybrids in the universe you would have to put all the Talaxians or all the Vulcans, or even all the humans in the universe on the other end of the counter balance.
The needs of an entire civilization vs the needs of a couple selfish assholes.
The needs of the many outwigh the needs of the few.
To balance the scales against all the Talaxian/Vulcans hybrids in the universe you would have to put all the Talaxians or all the Vulcans, or even all the humans in the universe on the other end of the counter balance.
The needs of an entire civilization vs the needs of a couple selfish assholes.
The needs of the many outwigh the needs of the few.
On the question of murder. I would argue that Janeway did murder Tuvix.
1. She intended to do him injury (kill him) so there is malice aforethought.
2. There was no legal justification for his death.
Some other moral issues:
There is a moral difference between killing and letting die however in this case Janeway killed Tuvix rather than allowed him to die. His death was necessary not a side-effect of getting Neelix and Tuvok back.
Since Tuvok was a close personal friend of Janeway it seems very unethical of her not to excuse herself from making the decision on the grounds that her decision may (and almost certainly was) influenced by her desire to see Tuvok return.
The manner in which she informed Tuvix of her decision and how she carried out the lethal procedure almost seemed to be unethical. Watching the episode I got a strong sense of disapprobation coming from her, as if Tuvix was guilty (of not relinquishing his life to restore her friends, of cowardice or selfishness, or even as if he were to blame for the death of Neelix and Tuvok).
Concerning the doctor, he has the power to overrule a ship's captain on matters medical. A medic aboard a submarine (often a non-commissioned officer) can order a captain to surface the vessel. Since the procedure was medical and the procedure would put in the danger the life of a passenger aboard the ship, he could have ordered Janeway to desist. The doctor actually refused to the carry out the procedure but didn't exercise his power to prevent the captain.
The 2 lives are greater than 1 argument
Suppose a valuable member of the crew, say Tuvok, accidently steps into an alien machine. The crew discover that his strange machine traps whoever enters for two weeks and then terminates them. The only way to free the trapped individual is for two living beings to enter the machine. When they enter, the trapped individual (in this case Tuvok) is spat out, alive and well but the two are now trapped and die instantly.
This is a case of killing 2 to save 1. However, for those who beleive that Janeway should base her decision on what is best in terms for the most effective crew complement then sacrificing 2 less important crew members in exchange for 1 much more important crew member seems to be the solution. The best candidates on Voyager would be Ensign Samantha Wildman and her baby Naomi. Would Janeway be prepared to do this? If the moral dilemma is decided on seeking the most effective crew complement then she has to be.
A similar dilemma...
Suppose two crew members, a husband and wife, go on an away mission to a planet and accidently wander into an alien machine. This machine, unlike the one Tuvok stepped into in the above example, will only release the trapped individuals if 1 person biologically related to both people is thrown into the machine. The 2 year old son of these two crew members is aboard the Voyager. Is Janeway prepared to throw him into the machine to save his parents?
A final quandry...
The doctor and Kim discover a way to get Tuvok or Neelix back. That is, the procedure will kill Tuvix and the molecules of either Tuvok or Neelix will be restored. Janeway can choose one of three options:
1. Do nothing and allow Tuvix to live.
2. Choose Tuvok to be restored (killing Tuvix and allowing Neelix to be lost forever)
3. Choose Neelix to be restored (killing Tuvix and allowing Tuvok to be lost forever)
1. She intended to do him injury (kill him) so there is malice aforethought.
2. There was no legal justification for his death.
Some other moral issues:
There is a moral difference between killing and letting die however in this case Janeway killed Tuvix rather than allowed him to die. His death was necessary not a side-effect of getting Neelix and Tuvok back.
Since Tuvok was a close personal friend of Janeway it seems very unethical of her not to excuse herself from making the decision on the grounds that her decision may (and almost certainly was) influenced by her desire to see Tuvok return.
The manner in which she informed Tuvix of her decision and how she carried out the lethal procedure almost seemed to be unethical. Watching the episode I got a strong sense of disapprobation coming from her, as if Tuvix was guilty (of not relinquishing his life to restore her friends, of cowardice or selfishness, or even as if he were to blame for the death of Neelix and Tuvok).
Concerning the doctor, he has the power to overrule a ship's captain on matters medical. A medic aboard a submarine (often a non-commissioned officer) can order a captain to surface the vessel. Since the procedure was medical and the procedure would put in the danger the life of a passenger aboard the ship, he could have ordered Janeway to desist. The doctor actually refused to the carry out the procedure but didn't exercise his power to prevent the captain.
The 2 lives are greater than 1 argument
Suppose a valuable member of the crew, say Tuvok, accidently steps into an alien machine. The crew discover that his strange machine traps whoever enters for two weeks and then terminates them. The only way to free the trapped individual is for two living beings to enter the machine. When they enter, the trapped individual (in this case Tuvok) is spat out, alive and well but the two are now trapped and die instantly.
This is a case of killing 2 to save 1. However, for those who beleive that Janeway should base her decision on what is best in terms for the most effective crew complement then sacrificing 2 less important crew members in exchange for 1 much more important crew member seems to be the solution. The best candidates on Voyager would be Ensign Samantha Wildman and her baby Naomi. Would Janeway be prepared to do this? If the moral dilemma is decided on seeking the most effective crew complement then she has to be.
A similar dilemma...
Suppose two crew members, a husband and wife, go on an away mission to a planet and accidently wander into an alien machine. This machine, unlike the one Tuvok stepped into in the above example, will only release the trapped individuals if 1 person biologically related to both people is thrown into the machine. The 2 year old son of these two crew members is aboard the Voyager. Is Janeway prepared to throw him into the machine to save his parents?
A final quandry...
The doctor and Kim discover a way to get Tuvok or Neelix back. That is, the procedure will kill Tuvix and the molecules of either Tuvok or Neelix will be restored. Janeway can choose one of three options:
1. Do nothing and allow Tuvix to live.
2. Choose Tuvok to be restored (killing Tuvix and allowing Neelix to be lost forever)
3. Choose Neelix to be restored (killing Tuvix and allowing Tuvok to be lost forever)
Do you think they had a memorial service for Tuvix? What if they fired an empty torpedo pod into space?
I'm sure the Maquis laborers below decks that have to manufacture them from scrap metal appreciate that. Especially after wasting a torpedo makes them have to stop building the latest shuttle replacement.
