Praetor Baldric
Lieutenant Commander
The Beatles are bigger than Jesus, but Kirk is bigger than The Beatles. 'Nuff said.
Atheism, and "Bread and Circuses"
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Well, Shatner is, that's for sure.
Scheimer does not suggest that, and as noted in the book, he was around Roddenberry long enough to know the man. That said, if the christening was intended to be a joke, the historically blunt Scheimer would not hesitate to point that out.
The christening seems to be Roddenberry being like many "seekers" of faith in the 60s and 70s--meaning, he seemed to believe in God at the time, but he was unclear as to the means to reach God, hence the invitation to many, rather than one...
...by now, you can guess where this is going: Roddenberry's invite seems like it was inspired (to some degree) by his own IDIC concept, so, out of some respect for the different religious bodies (or said bodies he acknowledged), he thought a diversity of faith stood the chance of getting junior into heaven.
If GR was what Braga tried to hammer, the idea of GR having anything to do with religon--joke or not--around such an important moment with his son--does not hold even a drop of water.
A
Amaris
Guest
Does it bother you that he's bothered? That bothers me.
But seriously, as someone who doesn't even remotely believe in the divinity of Jesus, the Son worship of "Bread and Circuses" doesn't bother me at all. It's just the product of what the creators believed in/thought the audience wanted to see. If Turkish Star Trek had an episode where Uhura pontificated about there being one true God and one true messenger of said God, that wouldn't bother me either, even though it doesn't reflect my own convictions.
I don't need Trek as my personal philosophical echo chamber. I need it to entertain me.
Bingo. Yahtzee. Scrabble. This exactly.
Bullseye.
The average Christian is in no way a 'Bible thumper', but Pat Robertson surely is.
They only represent about 10% of Christians in America, but they're out there, protesting at gay funerals, giving large sums of money to pass laws to persecute any form of behavior they disagree with, and doing everything up to holding their breath to keep evolution and sex education out of school textbooks.
And it's ridiculous for normal Christians to have to answer for them, but you must understand that people who grew up in America not believing in God faced a whole lot of judgment and hatred from that 10% who will insist as if common knowledge that anybody who doesn't get their morality from God is inherently selfish and depraved.
There's being tolerant and then there's tolerating hateful, destructive behavior that negatively impacts peoples' freedom and security. Just know that you are in no way the target when people use the term 'Bible thumper', and you probably dislike the people who are the targets as much as we do.
They only represent about 10% of Christians in America, but they're out there, protesting at gay funerals, giving large sums of money to pass laws to persecute any form of behavior they disagree with, and doing everything up to holding their breath to keep evolution and sex education out of school textbooks.
And it's ridiculous for normal Christians to have to answer for them, but you must understand that people who grew up in America not believing in God faced a whole lot of judgment and hatred from that 10% who will insist as if common knowledge that anybody who doesn't get their morality from God is inherently selfish and depraved.
There's being tolerant and then there's tolerating hateful, destructive behavior that negatively impacts peoples' freedom and security. Just know that you are in no way the target when people use the term 'Bible thumper', and you probably dislike the people who are the targets as much as we do.
Praetor Baldric
Lieutenant Commander
Isn't it possible that the references to religion in the various TOS episodes mentioned above were put there simply as small devices to help the audience relate a little more to this futuristic universe?
Gandhi and King.
King wanted acceptance his race. Gandhi wanted independence for his country. They both had a personal investment in their endeavors. Indiscriminate tolerance was no where in sight.
Of course that's possible. It seems to me, though, there's a little bit more to it. The Original Series has always struck me as having a sort of split personality regarding spiritual ideas. The Enterprise characters were very rational, and they expressed no overt religious beliefs.
There was the recurring theme of Kirk's rejection of paradise/supreme being (This Side of Paradise, The Return of the Archons, The Apple). Kirk was adamant in his view that people weren't meant to live an easy life, to stagnate under the influence of a higher power, no matter how benign. They were meant to struggle, to strive for improvement.
Meant by whom? Seems to me that Kirk believed in some sort of innate purpose for sentient beings, and that he thought he knew what that purpose was.
Praetor Baldric
Lieutenant Commander
So, if you have religious beliefs you are irrational and you will stagnate and never improve? Also, Kirk is an atheist? I think you may be reading into this a little bit too much.
I don't mean to introduce controversy to this thread, but when Kirk and Uhura start talking about "the Son," the music score plays a gorgeous riff on the Captain's theme.
As a Star Trek music enthusiast, I stand ready to debate anyone who disagrees.
As a Star Trek music enthusiast, I stand ready to debate anyone who disagrees.
Thank you, T'Bonz. I was beginning to think I was the only Christian on this forum.
The role of the Christianity referenced in Bread and Circuses has to read in context.
The "Romans" in Bread and Circuses are us (US us,) complete with TV car commercials. And the episode says their empire is morally wrong. The Christians are there to appropriate the more or less compulsory approbation for Christianity on behalf of a critique of contemporary society. The supposed reveal at the end is just a shaggy god gosh, wow, cool moment. Like so many cool things it is actually kind of stupid, but there you are. My experience in life suggests that this kind of moral ju-jitsu never really works.
Historically "God" and even "Providence" have stood in for nature. You have to judge these things from context. Sorry a dictionary can't substitute for reading.
And, no, it is not an accident that Kirk never met a God figure he didn't reject. He's no Sisko.
The "Romans" in Bread and Circuses are us (US us,) complete with TV car commercials. And the episode says their empire is morally wrong. The Christians are there to appropriate the more or less compulsory approbation for Christianity on behalf of a critique of contemporary society. The supposed reveal at the end is just a shaggy god gosh, wow, cool moment. Like so many cool things it is actually kind of stupid, but there you are. My experience in life suggests that this kind of moral ju-jitsu never really works.
Historically "God" and even "Providence" have stood in for nature. You have to judge these things from context. Sorry a dictionary can't substitute for reading.
And, no, it is not an accident that Kirk never met a God figure he didn't reject. He's no Sisko.
It sounds kind of Uniterian Universalist to me.
I don't mean to introduce controversy to this thread, but when Kirk and Uhura start talking about "the Son," the music score plays a gorgeous riff on the Captain's theme.
As a Star Trek music enthusiast, I stand ready to debate anyone who disagrees.
Well, don't leave us hanging, tell us what you think it means.
Add to all of this that GR and Majel were married in a traditional Buddhist-Shinto ceremony. If Roddernberry was of a mind to reject ALL religion back in that time, I think he would have found a more secular marriage ceremony. The fact that GR chose a Buddhist-Shinto ceremony seems to me that he was exploring and embracing all religions as part of his on IDIC. He found a non-Christian wedding ceremony that he liked and he chose it. (Well, I keep talking like Majel had no input.)
So, in the late 60s and early 70s GR gets married in a Buddhist-Shinto ceremony and has his son Christened by representatives from several religions.
I see what you did there
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