so ST 11 is another timeline [alt-reality]

[I am not Spock]

Re: so ST 11 is another timeline

I'm beginning to think this is completely different Universe,even before the Narada showed up. There are too many inconsistencies in technology for this just to be a different branch of the timeline from when the Narada shows up.

I think Nero and Spock travelled across not only time but dimensions, too. They went to a parallel universe 2233, one of the countless universes seen in TNG's Parallels. That fixes all continuity problems in one fell swoop!

Different universe, different rules. Khan is white, Chekov was born earlier, Robert April apparently didn't exist, etc. It's a totally different universe.

 

[bryce]

Re: so ST 11 is another timeline

I'm beginning to think this is completely different Universe,even before the Narada showed up. There are too many inconsistencies in technology for this just to be a different branch of the timeline from when the Narada shows up.

Agreed, the new trek universe has nothing to do with the "prime universe" and even if Nero and Spock hadn't shown up, the events in this universe would have still unfolded differently. IMO anyway, Strange enough, Nero showing up actually lead to events in this universe (Kirk and co. being aboard the enterprise) being more like the Prime Universe then they would have been.

Wrong.

You are all thinking too...liner...ly...ish...

As I tried to explain in another thread, this timeline DOES owe it's entire existence to Nero's time travel...*and* it's a different timeline, both forward and backwards...mostly.

You see, the Trek-multiverse is a reality where time travel is possible, and people from the relative future travel to the relative past, and influence it - therefore causality runs both ways - the past effects the future, *AND* the future effects the past...which also effects the future again. It's all (sorta) one big (mostly) closed-causal loop.

When Nero created a relative new present and future (well, for him it was new past, but ignore that for now)...he also would have had to effect, and even reshape, the past...(somewhat at least.)

And therefore, the timeline before the Kelvin incident, in this new reality, isn't (couldn't be, but more on that in a sec) the exact same past, the exact same timeline, as the past in the Prime TOS timeline (it is just one that is very, very similar to it - with it's own Archer and even it's own...well, spoilers for STID!)

Otherwise, the new timeline would have, in it's past, visitors from a future that wasn't it's own!!!

And nuKirk and company, could travel back in their past, and meet up with the prime timeline's version of Kirk...or even Picard or Sisko...and just hop a ride with them back to the Prime timeline!

And that would be impossible!

Sure, the new timeline has it's version of Archer...and it probably even has it's own version of Picard (or *somebody*) traveling back and helping it's version of Zephram Cochrane...but it's won't be the Prime timeline's version of Picard.

And I would even go so far as to say the each timeline...resonates...with the other - or maybe it's the timeline trying to "repair" itself...but there's a version of..fate...destiny...well, predestination in the new timeline - hence we get a Kirk and Spock and McCoy and Co. all together on a ship called Enterprise. So likely, there's a future version of Picard and Sisko and Janeway...just...their lives are...different. And there's *clearly* a past version of Archer and the NX-01...and those adventures are probably pretty similar to what we saw on TV...but not exactly the same. (And I dunno, changes in the new timeline past probably wouldn't be quite so extreme as the changes in it's future...for some reason.)

This kinda...synchronicity...isn't anything unprecedented in the Trek-verse - just look at the TOS timeline vs. the Mirror universe in TOS...and ENT and DS9! Some...something...keep both timelines very similar - with the same people and same ships and even some of the same historical events...but not *exactly* the same. (And we learned in ENT and DS9 that the past of the Mirror universe is very similar to the past of the TOS Prime timeline...but it's future..less similar...)

But there *were* changes - and this would explain the reason the Kelvin probably looks different from what the Kelvin in the Prime timeline should look like...and yet, there's most likely a USS Kelvin in *both* timelines.

Here's one way to picture it...

Instead of the timeline's looking like this shape: H <-- where we have two parallel and mostly untouching - and totally unbranching timelines running parallel, with the cross-bar of the "H" representing Nero and Spock's wormhole crossing over...

And instead of the timeline looking like this: Y <-- with only one past, that branches off into two separate futures (a shape that you can ONLY have in a universe where causality only runs past to future....

It looks like this: X ...or maybe this: >< <-- with the creation point - the point where the two (time)lines bend to touch being Nero's journey to the past. (But note, that each timeline is *almost* a mirror image of the other!)

Make sense now? Lol.

 

[HOoftheKinshaya]

Re: so ST 11 is another timeline

I'm beginning to think this is completely different Universe,even before the Narada showed up. There are too many inconsistencies in technology for this just to be a different branch of the timeline from when the Narada shows up.

Agreed, the new trek universe has nothing to do with the "prime universe" and even if Nero and Spock hadn't shown up, the events in this universe would have still unfolded differently. IMO anyway, Strange enough, Nero showing up actually lead to events in this universe (Kirk and co. being aboard the enterprise) being more like the Prime Universe then they would have been.

Wrong.

You are all thinking too...liner...ly...ish...

As I tried to explain in another thread, this timeline DOES owe it's entire existence to Nero's time travel...*and* it's a different timeline, both forward and backwards...mostly.

You see, the Trek-multiverse is a reality where time travel is possible, and people from the relative future travel to the relative past, and influence it - therefore causality runs both ways - the past effects the future, *AND* the future effects the past...which also effects the future again. It's all (sorta) one big (mostly) closed-causal loop.

When Nero created a relative new present and future (well, for him it was new past, but ignore that for now)...he also would have had to effect, and even reshape, the past...(somewhat at least.)

And therefore, the timeline before the Kelvin incident, in this new reality, isn't (couldn't be, but more on that in a sec) the exact same past, the exact same timeline, as the past in the Prime TOS timeline (it is just one that is very, very similar to it - with it's own Archer and even it's own...well, spoilers for STID!)

Otherwise, the new timeline would have, in it's past, visitors from a future that wasn't it's own!!!

And nuKirk and company, could travel back in their past, and meet up with the prime timeline's version of Kirk...or even Picard or Sisko...and just hop a ride with them back to the Prime timeline!

And that would be impossible!

Sure, the new timeline has it's version of Archer...and it probably even has it's own version of Picard (or *somebody*) traveling back and helping it's version of Zephram Cochrane...but it's won't be the Prime timeline's version of Picard.

And I would even go so far as to say the each timeline...resonates...with the other - or maybe it's the timeline trying to "repair" itself...but there's a version of..fate...destiny...well, predestination in the new timeline - hence we get a Kirk and Spock and McCoy and Co. all together on a ship called Enterprise. So likely, there's a future version of Picard and Sisko and Janeway...just...their lives are...different. And there's *clearly* a past version of Archer and the NX-01...and those adventures are probably pretty similar to what we saw on TV...but not exactly the same. (And I dunno, changes in the new timeline past probably wouldn't be quite so extreme as the changes in it's future...for some reason.)

This kinda...synchronicity...isn't anything unprecedented in the Trek-verse - just look at the TOS timeline vs. the Mirror universe in TOS...and ENT and DS9! Some...something...keep both timelines very similar - with the same people and same ships and even some of the same historical events...but not *exactly* the same. (And we learned in ENT and DS9 that the past of the Mirror universe is very similar to the past of the TOS Prime timeline...but it's future..less similar...)

But there *were* changes - and this would explain the reason the Kelvin probably looks different from what the Kelvin in the Prime timeline should look like...and yet, there's most likely a USS Kelvin in *both* timelines.

Here's one way to picture it...

Instead of the timeline's looking like this shape: H <-- where we have two parallel and mostly untouching - and totally unbranching timelines running parallel, with the cross-bar of the "H" representing Nero and Spock's wormhole crossing over...

And instead of the timeline looking like this: Y <-- with only one past, that branches off into two separate futures (a shape that you can ONLY have in a universe where causality only runs past to future....

It looks like this: X ...or maybe this: >< <-- with the creation point - the point where the two (time)lines bend to touch being Nero's journey to the past. (But note, that each timeline is *almost* a mirror image of the other!)

Make sense now? Lol.

I like it and it makes sense in time anomaly, space/time continuum sort of way.

 

[Set Harth]

If this is not a spoiler-marked thread, it would be nice if people would use spoiler tags.

 

[Awesome Possum]

Re: so ST 11 is another timeline

I'm beginning to think this is completely different Universe,even before the Narada showed up. There are too many inconsistencies in technology for this just to be a different branch of the timeline from when the Narada shows up.

I think Nero and Spock travelled across not only time but dimensions, too. They went to a parallel universe 2233, one of the countless universes seen in TNG's Parallels. That fixes all continuity problems in one fell swoop!

Different universe, different rules. Khan is white, Chekov was born earlier, Robert April apparently didn't exist, etc. It's a totally different universe.

April exists and was the captain of a ship called Enterprise. They show him in Countdown Into Darkness, which appears to be canon since Kirk mentions it as the Mudd incident.

 

[TrekGuide.com]

Re: so ST 11 is another timeline

I'm beginning to think this is completely different Universe,even before the Narada showed up. There are too many inconsistencies in technology for this just to be a different branch of the timeline from when the Narada shows up.

This entire timeline is a direct continuation a century later of the series "Star Trek: Enterprise," which itself was embroiled is several temporal incursions and a temporal cold war (including the destruction of Florida by an alien death ray). Plus "Enterprise" itself was a direct continuation of the altered timeline created by the Borg a century earlier in "Star Trek: First Contact," so this alternate timeline started two centuries before the Narada ever showed up. This was not the original TOS timeline up to that point -- it was the "First Contact"/"Enterprise" timeline.

This is not even the first alternate timeline that has been depicted in Star Trek over the last 735 episodes ...

Remember TNG's episode "Yesterday's Enterprise"? That depicted the original timeline, where the Federation was losing a war with the Klingons, when Lt. Yar took the Enterprise-C back in time and created an alternate timeline by saving the Klingon outpost, permanently cut off from her own future, and creating a whole new timeline where the Federation did not go to war with the Klingons.

That is exactly what Ambassador Spock and Nero did in the last movie. It might even have been the same black hole phenomenon that sent them back in time. So all of TNG, DS9, and Voyager were set in an alternate timeline; "Yesterday's Enterprise" was the only episode that depicted the original, unaltered timeline, before anyone changed the past.

So yes, the timelines have been altered numerous times for more than two centuries before "Star Trek XI" even began. Even if Nero had never appeared, this would still be the altered "Star Trek: Enterptise"/"First Contact" timeline, not the original TOS timeline.

 

[F. King Daniel]

But in-universe, Star Trek: First Contact wasn't a change in the timeline! They explicitly say so in VOY: "Relativity" ...

DUCANE: The Pogo Paradox.

SEVEN: A causality loop in which interference to prevent an event actually triggers the same event.

DUCANE: Excellent. Can you give me an example?

SEVEN: The Borg once travelled back in time to stop Zefram Cochrane from breaking the warp barrier. They succeeded, but that in turn led the Starship Enterprise to intervene. They assisted Cochrane with the flight the Borg was trying to prevent. Causal loop complete.

DUCANE: So, in a way, the Federation owes its existence to the Borg.

SEVEN: You're welcome.

http://www.chakoteya.net/voyager/523.htm

In Trek's world, FC, ENT, TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY are the prime universe. In 2233 an alternate reality branches off which is where the new movies take place. Any discontinuities are either mistakes or out-of-universe retcons.

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

It's certainly not impossible that it was all a parallel reality even before Nero and Spock travelled back, but that does somewhat rob it of a connection to what came before from a dramatic standpoint, and would seem to be counterindicated by Nimoy being credited as "Spock Prime."

I would prefer to look at the casting of Cumberbatch as you-know-who [don't read further if you don't want the surprise spoiled!] as akin to the Robin Curtis vs. Kirstie Alley as Saavik thing mentioned above: just a different actor playing the role and not an "in universe" difference. It's not as if a character who has been genetically engineered must be clearly of one particular race, nor must an actor's race or appearance be seen as directly reflective of a character's. (After all, Montalban was not a Sikh either, and moreover the character's designation as one in "Space Seed" was only McGivers' guess to begin with.) The issue of his race doesn't come up at all in the new movie, and is irrelevant to the story.

 

[TrekGuide.com]

hmmmm, with such a massive incident (destroying Vulcan) in the timeline, how come the temporal devision of Startrek didnt do something? hell, in the episode 'Relativity' (Voyager) the temporal guys were out to stop just one ship from being destroyed. ...

hmmm got an idea for a script to put things right here

For the same reason they didn't travel back in time to prevent Adm. Janeway from getting VOY home 16 years early.

In my book, they did. It's all a matter of perspective. Audiences get to see the alternate outcomes. The timeline gets still reset by the time cops.

Admiral Janeway appeared in "Star Trek: Nemesis," so that movie continued in the alternate timeline created at the end of "Voyager." And the end of "Voyager" was already set in an alternate timeline created by the Borg in "Star Trek: First Contact," which means the last four Star Trek movies have each taken place in an alternate timeline from the previous movie. This last Trek movie is no different.

These last two Trek movies are a direct continuation of the Borg attack in "Star Trek: First Contact" and the Temporal Cold War in "Star Trek: Enterprise."

(Given enough research, Chris Pine's Kirk could probably locate some records of the Borg attack on Zefram Cochrane two centuries earlier, or the Xindi death ray that wiped out Florida one century earlier. That's assuming that there haven't been a dozen more alternate timelines created in the 100 years since the last episode of "Enterprise.")

Even before Nero showed up, we were already about 17 timelines removed from The Original Series, which itself generated several alternate timelines during its run.

Although people often talk about "restoring" a timeline when history is changed, what they're usually doing is creating a third timeline that more closely resembles the one they prefer.

Sometimes, as in "Endgame" and "Yesterday's Enterprise," the time traveler decides the altered timeline is better than the one they left, and decides to stay there without trying to "restore" it.

Which is the same result of Nero and Spock coming back in time. "Star Trek XI" shows exactly the same temporal mechanics at work as Admiral Janeway in "Endgame" and Lt. Yar in "Yesterday's Enterprise."

They all went into the past, changed the past, and stayed in the past, and none of the alternate timelines they created was ever "restored."

 

[lawman]

I'm beginning to think this is completely different Universe,even before the Narada showed up. There are too many inconsistencies in technology for this just to be a different branch of the timeline from when the Narada shows up.

Agreed, the new trek universe has nothing to do with the "prime universe" and even if Nero and Spock hadn't shown up, the events in this universe would have still unfolded differently. ...

I disagree. Primarily because JJ Abrams has in numerous interviews stated this was the original timeline up until the day of Kirk's birth. You may not like the delivery or some inconsistencies that show up but to refute it would be telling the author you know the story he wrote regardless of what he says the story was.

And... so? To abide by what he says would be to submit to the Intentional Fallacy. It's well established in critical theory that a work should be analyzed and interpreted in terms of its actual content, and there's no reason to defer to the author's interpretation of it. (I know, Abrams isn't actually the author but the director, but never mind that detail.)

Wrong.

You are all thinking too...liner...ly...ish...

As I tried to explain in another thread, this timeline DOES owe it's entire existence to Nero's time travel...*and* it's a different timeline, both forward and backwards...mostly.

You see, the Trek-multiverse is a reality where time travel is possible, and people from the relative future travel to the relative past, and influence it - therefore causality runs both ways - the past effects the future, *AND* the future effects the past...which also effects the future again. It's all (sorta) one big (mostly) closed-causal loop.

When Nero created a relative new present and future (well, for him it was new past, but ignore that for now)...he also would have had to effect, and even reshape, the past...(somewhat at least.)

...

Otherwise, the new timeline would have, in it's past, visitors from a future that wasn't it's own!!!

I like the basic underlying logic of your theory: that insofar as the Trek universe we knew reflected the results of various retrocausal events, Nero's incursion could have ripple effects that manifested *before* 2233.

However, I can't entirely agree with all your conclusions. For one thing, first and foremost, there's no logical reason a timeline could not have, at any given point in its past, visitors from multiple potential futures of that past moment.

For another, the "X" metaphor you describe doesn't quite work: insofar as Nero's incursion might have retrocausal effects, technically it seems logical that they would produce additional branching timelines from earlier points that would run parallel to the one Nero landed in, not that they would change that same one. IOW, something less like an X and more like a tree, with multiple branches.

For a third, even disregarding the second point, we were exposed to scenes aboard the Kelvin that took place *before* Nero's incursion, in both a linear and a metachronological sense, and thus before any retrocausal effects that incursion might have produced... but it was still "already" different from the 2233 we would have expected to see based on TOS history.

I'm beginning to think this is completely different Universe,even before the Narada showed up. There are too many inconsistencies in technology for this just to be a different branch of the timeline from when the Narada shows up.

This entire timeline is a direct continuation a century later of the series "Star Trek: Enterprise," which itself was embroiled is several temporal incursions and a temporal cold war (including the destruction of Florida by an alien death ray). Plus "Enterprise" itself was a direct continuation of the altered timeline created by the Borg a century earlier in "Star Trek: First Contact," so this alternate timeline started two centuries before the Narada ever showed up. This was not the original TOS timeline up to that point -- it was the "First Contact"/"Enterprise" timeline.

This. I agree completely. Even before AbramsTrek, we were several timelines removed from the future history represented in TOS... and in fact I'd argue that was true even before First Contact, at least as far back as the ripple effects from STIV's incursion into 1986.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Are all prior Treks the same reality?


*McCoy ("Encounter at Farpoint"), Spock ("Unification"), Scotty ("Relics") and Kirk ("Generations") crossed over with TNG

*DS9 crossed over with TOS ("Trials and Tribble-ations") and TNG ("The Emissary", "Bloodlines")

*Voyager launched from DS9 ("Caretaker")

*Voyager crossed over with STVI ("Flashback") and referenced events from DS9 ("Ship in a Bottle" etc.)

*Voyager directly references time-travel events of FC ("Year of Hell", "Relativity")

*ENT crossed over with TOS (the USS Defiant appeared in "In a Mirror, Darkly", after vanishing in "The Tholian Web"), TNG ("These are the Voyages") and spun off of First Contact (dozens of references, most notably in "Broken Bow" and "Regeneration")


And following the Narada's arrival in 2233...


*ST mentioned ENT's Admiral Archer, Spock Prime's backstory consistent with "Unification"

*STID referenced FC with a model of Cochrane's Phoenix and ENT with models of the NX-alpha/beta ("First Flight") and Enterprise NX-01. Also on display was the Ringship Enterprise, which had previously appeared as background art in TMP and ENT.

*STID's Khan backstory is consistent with what we learned of the Eugenics Wars in TOS and ENT.


Each to their own, but saying the Kirk who Sisko met wasn't the same Kirk that later met Picard or who almost died on the USS Defiant which had records of Jonathan Archer's missions or that the Jonathan Archer mentioned there wasn't the same one that Riker played a holosimulation of just prior to "The Pegasus" seems to defeat the object of crossing over any of the series' at all. There are dozens of continuity errors between the different series' and movies, but IMO they're easily ignored.

 

[ConRefit79]

Well if its only changed because of Nero then we get to look forward to:

Nomad, Planet Killer, Space Amoeba, VGer and a whale probe. I'm sure I've left some things out. Looks like they haven't been able to wipe the slate completely clean.

 

[Set Harth]

It's well established in critical theory that a work should be analyzed and interpreted in terms of its actual content, and there's no reason to defer to the author's interpretation of it.

Meaning only that some people have taken it upon themselves to assert that that's the way it "should" be.

And... so?

but it was still "already" different from the 2233 we would have expected to see based on TOS history.

No, it wasn't.

 

[Kemaiku]

They already took care of V'ger in one of the comics. Spock may want to keep some things to himself, but helping them make an antimatter mine for the Doomsday Machine and Amoeba, and have Humpback Whale linguacode for the Probe would solve those.

 

[ConRefit79]

They already took care of V'ger in one of the comics. Spock may want to keep some things to himself, but helping them make an antimatter mine for the Doomsday Machine and Amoeba, and have Humpback Whale linguacode for the Probe would solve those.

As much as I love ST, I don't read comics. Novels yes, but those are not canon. I would think the same is true of comics. But for the average movie goer, they could care less. But those of us who love the SciFi aspect of ST, we want a little realism with explaining away the aspects that should not be effected by Nero.

 

[Kemaiku]

Too bad.

 

[lawman]

It's well established in critical theory that a work should be analyzed and interpreted in terms of its actual content, and there's no reason to defer to the author's interpretation of it.

Meaning only that some people have taken it upon themselves to assert that that's the way it "should" be.

And... so?

So the fact that the director and/or writer(s) say that the timeline makes sense in a certain way doesn't mean any viewers should take that statement as dispositive, if there are persuasive arguments to the contrary.

but it was still "already" different from the 2233 we would have expected to see based on TOS history.

No, it wasn't.

Oh. Well, I have to bow to your strength of your logic there.

But seriously... while I liked the opening sequence of ST09 (in fact, IMHO it was the best part of the movie), are you really trying to say that the Kelvin — a survey vessel with a crew of 800 and 20 shuttlecraft in the *2230s* — fits plausibly into what we know of TOS history? (Not to mention the whole revamped faux-Gregorian system of stardates, which apparently applies from the 2230s straight through to the 2480s...)

 

[anothertrekfan]

Wow. There are some major nerds in here.

 

[F. King Daniel]

But seriously... while I liked the opening sequence of ST09 (in fact, IMHO it was the best part of the movie), are you really trying to say that the Kelvin — a survey vessel with a crew of 800 and 20 shuttlecraft in the *2230s* — fits plausibly into what we know of TOS history? (Not to mention the whole revamped faux-Gregorian system of stardates, which apparently applies from the 2230s straight through to the 2480s...)

Why not? Starfleet was completely reimagined in The Motion Picture (only 2.5 years after the end of the Animated Series!). There's no in-universe evolution there, just a real-life switch from 60's TV to late-70's movie. In fact, TMP looks less advanced in several respects, such as the greeble-covered transporter room with a shielded operator booth. The same is true of the Kelvin - it's the 23rd century as seen in 2009 and not 1966. As for the size, they built them bigger in those days.

Besides, the same was once said of the NX-01 Enterprise vs. TOS, yet they crossed over in "In a Mirror, Darkly", and the NX crew treated a Constitution-class starship as technology-meets-art.

As for Stardates - you're saying them being comprehensible is a continuity error?

 

[ConRefit79]

[ In fact, TMP looks less advanced in several respects, such as the greeble-covered transporter room with a shielded operator booth.

TMP Transporter was supposed to be a newer more powerful model. What exactly that means is never explained.